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Patrick_Mucci

The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« on: March 27, 2012, 05:48:13 PM »
most likely the narrowing of fairways that's taken place over the last 60 years.

The original and perhaps primary culprit is probably automated irrigation systems introduced in the 50's and 60's.

The more recent culprit is probably the attempts to defend par.

One of the great eye openers for me was my visit and play of Wild Horse in 2005.
On one of the par 5's they had a great centerline bunker complex, one that could only be accomodated by wide fairways.

But, wide fairways have been shrunk over the last 60 years for a variety of reasons.

The recent introduction of a centerline bunker on # 3 at Hidden Creek, while small, physically, is huge mentally and strategically.

Width allows the architect to do so much more in the fairways.

If the trend to eliminate flanking trees and expand fairways takes hold, will centerline bunker complexes be far behind ?

What are some of the best centerline bunker complexes you've PLAYED ?

Sean Leary

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Re: The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2012, 06:03:23 PM »
Perception of fairness is also an issue. Joe Q Public doesn't like a drive right down the middle to end up in one.

I love them and wish there were more of them.

Jason Topp

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Re: The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2012, 06:04:31 PM »
Makes sense to me.  I have experienced the reverse problem on some courses in recent years - wide fairways with nothing to create interest off the tee.  Centerline bunkers address that issue.

 

David_Elvins

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Re: The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2012, 06:07:50 PM »
Pat,

IMO one of the worst features in golf is the centreline bunker that doesn't have sufficient width around it.  It seems that some architect see that they are a trend and build them without really getting what makes them work.

Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

JESII

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Re: The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2012, 06:09:48 PM »
Pat,

Good news about the 3rd at Hidden Creek...I'm anxious to see it. Is it on the tee shot or second?

The 16th hole at Applebrook has an incredibly vexing (to my feeble mind anyway...) bunker in the layup area and it should be the prototype for the concept of putting a bunker where you think the best place to play the hole from would be. I've played the hole 8 or 9 times and been in or right near this buner about 7 times. It's only 6 feet across and has a few more feet of rough around it on an 80 yard wide fairway...mindboggling!

I would think figuring out how to maintain fairway turf less expensively with comparable results in playability will be the key to gaining more fairway height width on a golf course (cutting down trees are a different issue in my opinion). Fairway height width is primarily what's needed to add a bunker in the middle of it.

Sean_A

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Re: The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2012, 06:14:12 PM »
Pat

I think the biggest impediment to centreline bunkers is golfers don't seem to care for them.  

I really like Harlech's centreline bunkers on the 17th.



Lederach has a plethora of good centreline bunkers.  

Stranahan Course - #12 - centreline and hidden.


I spose Hell Bunker has to be mentioned, but there isn't fairway around the bunker.

The 12th at Castle Course has  very good cl bunker.


The bunker complex, Stroke and a few others on TOC's 12th. #13 has Coffin's & Nick's!


Ciao

New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Howard Riefs

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Re: The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2012, 06:30:27 PM »
Big fan of the centerline on #1 Kingsley. A great, intimidating opening tee shot to start the round.

Photos from Tim Burke's epic course photo tour:



The view from the clubhouse


A view from the tee


Another view from the tee widescreen style


If your tee shot creeps back down the fairway you may be left with this intimidating second shot over the mini-mountain



Source thread:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37381.0.html
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Sven Nilsen

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Re: The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2012, 06:32:16 PM »
The 10th at Old MacDonald.
The 3rd and the 6th at Bandon Trails.
The 2nd, 3rd and 12th at Pac Dunes.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 06:35:59 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bill_McBride

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Re: The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2012, 06:32:59 PM »
Talking Stick North has beauties:  #4 with room both sides and over, #5, small pot dead center, and #12, sandy wash in the middle with dangerous small fairway left by OOB and huge fairway right with dangerous approach toward that OOB.

#5 Friars Head, short par 4 with lots of room both sides, either side okay depending on pin location.  

Cuscowilla #5, another short 4 laid out like #12 TSN.  

The common denominator?  All by Coore and Crenshaw and all loosely modeled on #16 on the Old Course with the Principal's Nose the central hazard.

The irony?  That the Links Trust has grown thick rough left of the PN!

Keith OHalloran

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Re: The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2012, 07:10:06 PM »
There is one on the Red Course at Bethpage that I have always disliked. I think the width on either side is a contributing factor to my thoughts.

Joe Byrnes

Re: The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2012, 07:25:25 PM »
The 12th at Kingston Heath is a good use of the centreline bunkers. Wide right section gives a longer route home, while the narrower left section shortens the trip, but brings into play all the trouble down the left as you get closer to the hole.

Anthony Gray

Re: The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2012, 08:12:24 PM »


  Hell


Pete Balzer

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Re: The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2012, 09:45:44 PM »
Prairie Club- Dunes Course

David_Madison

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Re: The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2012, 10:38:57 PM »
Patrick - I agree that it's likely that we'll continue to see more centerline bunkers as the influence of C&C, Tom Doak, Lester George, and others with a similar bent continues to grow.

Ballyhack on multiple holes

Greenbrier Old White #12

Bandon Dunes - I seem to remember them on all of the courses




Patrick_Mucci

Re: The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2012, 10:45:12 PM »
Pat,

Good news about the 3rd at Hidden Creek...I'm anxious to see it. Is it on the tee shot or second?

The second shot.

While there's ample width on both sides of the bunker, but, the large pit to the right is intimidating and the woods on the left is also disturbing to the golfer.

It's small size makes it more difficult to gage, but, with all of the rangefinders and GPS it's distance can be determined.

Still, it gets into the golfer's head and he can't ignore it.


The 16th hole at Applebrook has an incredibly vexing (to my feeble mind anyway...) bunker in the layup area and it should be the prototype for the concept of putting a bunker where you think the best place to play the hole from would be. I've played the hole 8 or 9 times and been in or right near this buner about 7 times. It's only 6 feet across and has a few more feet of rough around it on an 80 yard wide fairway...mindboggling!

I liken those features to an attractive nuisance where the golfer is drawn to them like a moth to the flame.


I would think figuring out how to maintain fairway turf less expensively with comparable results in playability will be the key to gaining more fairway height width on a golf course (cutting down trees are a different issue in my opinion). Fairway height width is primarily what's needed to add a bunker in the middle of it.

A, if not "the" major impediment to restoring width to fairways may be the cost to alter the irrigation system.


Jeff_Lewis

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Re: The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2012, 11:10:53 PM »
Great thread, Pat.

Most truly great courses have central hazards.  It's that simple. If you walk off a course and were never asked whether to hit right, left, short or try to carry SOMETHING, it probably wasn't very good.

Jason Topp

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Re: The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2012, 01:26:47 AM »
Do golfers really dislike centerline bunkers ?  I have played with plenty of non GCA types and have never heard a complaint about a visible centerline bunker.  I have heard plenty of complaints about blind ones.

David_Elvins

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Re: The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2012, 01:40:34 AM »
The recent introduction of a centerline bunker on # 3 at Hidden Creek, while small, physically, is huge mentally and strategically.

Pat,

The bunker was added in 2007 - five years ago.  I won't make any old age jokes.  

I really liked the centre line bunkers on 2 and 8 at Hidden Creek as well.  all of them really sat well in the landforms that the golfer played over.  
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 01:48:06 AM by David_Elvins »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

John Chilver-Stainer

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Re: The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2012, 04:16:38 AM »
Patrick,

I believe the impediment to centreline bunkers is ................

..... in the single-minded minds of some single-handicap golfers.

Centreline Bunkers are the ultimate „Risk and Reward“ hazards.
If “Risk and Reward” is a strategic principle then there should be more Centreline Bunkers.

Some single-handicap golfers who play my courses complain my Centreline Bunkers are “bad design”.
I often hear “I hit the perfect Drive and it ended it up in a bunker - that' wrong”

My usual reply is “Yes you're right that you're wrong, because a Drive that goes into a bunker can't be perfect - your Drive was either an errant shot or misjudgment– don’t blame the design”

However some still single-mindedly believe they have the rights to perfect lies in their own personal landing zone - so they can take full advantage of their long Drives for a better chance of par - and avoid the fear of bogey that may threaten their single handicap.

Golf Course Designers, that hear this complaint too often, will tend to adjust their designs and avoid Centreline Bunkers, to avoid criticism from the leading golfers.

Personally I love the 12th and 16th Holes at the Old Course St.Andrews  - great examples of Centreline Bunkers

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2012, 04:41:45 AM »
Patrick,

I believe the impediment to centreline bunkers is ................

..... in the single-minded minds of some single-handicap golfers.

Centreline Bunkers are the ultimate „Risk and Reward“ hazards.
If “Risk and Reward” is a strategic principle then there should be more Centreline Bunkers.

Some single-handicap golfers who play my courses complain my Centreline Bunkers are “bad design”.
I often hear “I hit the perfect Drive and it ended it up in a bunker - that' wrong”

My usual reply is “Yes you're right that you're wrong, because a Drive that goes into a bunker can't be perfect - your Drive was either an errant shot or misjudgment– don’t blame the design”

However some still single-mindedly believe they have the rights to perfect lies in their own personal landing zone - so they can take full advantage of their long Drives for a better chance of par - and avoid the fear of bogey that may threaten their single handicap.

Golf Course Designers, that hear this complaint too often, will tend to adjust their designs and avoid Centreline Bunkers, to avoid criticism from the leading golfers.

Personally I love the 12th and 16th Holes at the Old Course St.Andrews  - great examples of Centreline Bunkers


Its lovely to think The Principal's Nose is the centre piece of a handsome face, but a few years ago the 16th lost a bout and suffered a broken nose.  Said nose is now decidedly bent to the left, adjacent to a bushy sideburn.  Don't ask ow I know.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2012, 04:47:11 AM »
Good one, Pat.

IMO, the main "impediment" to CBs is the unwillingness of club managers or members to embrace the fact that maybe on some holes the best line of attack from the tee for the great majority of players (i.e. those who can carry the drive regularly <200 yards) is to hit the ball right or left of the "center."

Rich

PS--belated happy birthday!
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

archie_struthers

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Re: The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2012, 06:16:54 AM »
 :D ;) :)


They are way cool!  Love them.   The difficulty can be in draining them properly, particularly if you aren't interested in piping them. Of course , some here have more experience with that than others.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2012, 06:39:34 AM »

The impediment to centreline bunkers today, I believe, must be placed clearly at the feet or wheels of modern golfers, club/club owners and the attitude to the modern game. In other words, nothing must stand in the way of stopping the long aerial game, of the ultimate aim of the achieving a low score by whatever means.

It seems to matter not at bit as to what the cost is to the game or its great courses let alone to the individual him/herself. The very idea of playing the game is no longer the reason for playing golf, that of thinking and walking. Alas it all centres upon making it easy, forcing rule changes to allow the uncommitted to water down the game. Seemingly proving their unfit nature, be it physical or mental to really be able to play in the first place.

Centreline bunkers are a major player in defending against the long shot and can re-introduce THINKING back into the game of some players (well perhaps).

They are a key weapon in the designer’s arsenal, alas apparently not used for fear of upsetting the modern weak and uncommitted player who always seems to be looking for the easy options (perhaps for the fear of not being really up to the challenge of playing real golf).

Why do we always forget that golf is meant to be a challenge from start to finish, why do some many want to weaken it to no more than a walk ride in the park.

Thank God I am not alone in loving these great equalisers in the fight for the game of golf   

Melvyn     

David_Madison

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Re: The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2012, 07:09:26 AM »
Sebonack #9 also has a big bunker int he middle of the fairway. Even Jack Nicklaus (with Tom Doak) is getting into the act.

Tom Kelly

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Re: The impediment to centerline bunkers is
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2012, 07:49:13 AM »
11th at Kingston Heath

3rd at Castle Stuart

9th at North Berwick

6th Carnoustie - Hogan's Alley

The Principal's Nose should be the best of the lot.

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