[Rich Goodale]

On JNC's "Short" hole thread, I loosely posited the concept of a "Middle" template hole.  Thinking about that voile d'esprit I thought more and decdied (sic) that maybe the great "Middle" hole might be the essence of great GCA.  Think Confucius as well as Plato, and the "middling" beauties of such short and long holes as the 2nd at Old Moray and the 16th at Cypress Point.  Both holes are demostrably and proudly fractional par holes.  To me at least, the joy of playing either of them is greatest when you are stuck in the middle of your possible strategies.

Getting back to the Greeks, to them perfection was best expressed in two dimensions--both artistically and mathematically.  We all know that 2-dimensional representations of golf holes or shots are woefully inferior to what we can see with our human eye, and also know that the Greeks never really got past binomial theory.  So, in the modern world of concepts of multiple dimensions how do we best create and analyse GCA?

[Garland Bayley]

"Pinable areas"

[Peter Pallotta]

Nice one, Rich. Many ways to approach this, but I think it necessary to state up front the essential variable/choice inherent in designing actual golf courses as opposed to, say, solving mathematical equations or positing philosophic ideals.  That variable/choice is whether or not to put a premium on working with the land as it exists in its natural state.  If ones believes this premium is necessary/desired, it goes a long way in telling us how to build/analyze a golf hole in three dimensions; if one doesn't believe this, I wouldn't say "all bets are off", but I would say that the nature of the analysis changes dramatically -- becoming more like the pondering of Platonic forms/possibilities.

Peter  

[Rich Goodale]

Good points Peter.  I'll have to think about his some more, but what I do know is that adding conifers to get that elusive third dimesion (as Garland implies "pineable areas") is not the answer.

[David Harshbarger]

A handy dodge: think of analyzing golf as a qualitative, not a quantitative exercise.  Use that approach to leave the question of dimensionality as irrelevant, and look instead to the infinite dimensions of qualitative analysis.  You could take that back to the Greeks and look for epic poems, or maybe better, the stage.  In that form, there could be no more voluble Chorus than gca.com.  

[JMEvensky]

 but what I do know is that adding conifers to get that elusive third dimesion (as Garland implies "pineable areas") is not the answer.

This is so good that I'm going to ignore Garland's "dimesion" comeback. Plus,I see no way for him to make dimesion punable,pinable,or pineable.

Welcome back.

[Rich Goodale]

Good post, David.  It supports my campaign to rid GCA.com from the infestation of all two dimensional eye candy.

JM.  Thanks for noting my tyop.

Rich

[Jim_Kennedy]

As it was for the Greeks, so should it be for GCA - balance - using some from this school of architecture, some from that, and some from the other.


 

[RJ_Daley]

Hi Brain, nice to have you back!  Do you mean this stuff?



All I can get out of it is creating and analyzing GCA in 2D on paper and by math and drawing is superficia/ unable to see the golf hole as it plays and its quality in our real 3D world. Thus in 2D one gets hung up on distance and angles.  3D helps understand intangibles of aerial, ground/bound, and wind, or how it plays through space, not on the plane of lines of the drawing.  

But, in an implied era of more than 3D, which is usually the dimension of 4D-time, maybe it means we just have to use the tools and skills one acquires as an archie and constructor, use our knowledge of the game and apply it to 3D, and see how time dictates if the qualities of how the designers intends it to play, are valid in time as it passes.

[Rich Goodale]

Exactly, Dick!  And I will never forget the 4D sound of your golf ball hitting that plastic rock at Barona.......

[RJ_Daley]

Ha!!!!  If we weren't there, it wouldn't have sounded like anything...but the rock would still shriek for the soul of golf. 

[Niall C]

"So, in the modern world of concepts of multiple dimensions how do we best create and analyse GCA?"

Answer to the first part of the question is clearly plasticene models, either Greek plasticene or ordinary plasticene. Now answering the second part is more tricky. How about photographs of plasticene models with a man pointing a stick at it saying this is how you do it ? And what if the man was Greek.........

eh maybe not !

Niall

[Rich Goodale]

Niall

As it was said by Monty Python and always shall be, the Greeks shall inherit the earth.  Or at least what is left of it once we solve their current debt crisis........

Rich

[Garland Bayley]

Good points Peter.  I'll have to think about his some more, but what I do know is that adding conifers to get that elusive third dimesion (as Garland implies "pineable areas") is not the answer.

Or, we could just leave the existing cunifers there.

[John Kirk]

Along with Garland Bayley, Rich Goodale, and I'm sure many others, I would really like to see (a + b)⁴.  That's a four, by the way.  Just showing I can superscript it.

[John Kirk]

OK, relevant response to the question.

When I read the first sentence of your opening statement...

"On JNC's "Short" hole thread, I loosely posited the concept of a "Middle" template hole."

I immediately thought that you meant a "Middle" template for a par 3.  And to me, that is more interesting.  I don't want to hijack the thread, but once you get to modern par 3.5 size, there's lots of room for variation.

Eden and Redan are specialized "Middle" holes.  Perhaps "Redan" is the stereotypical "Middle" hole.  But it's pretty specialized.

I say there's room to suggest a template for "Middle" par 3 style.  Give me a mid-iron or fairway wood hole with a big front right bunker and a large, kidney-shaped green that wraps around the bunker, and slopes consistently from back to front.  Make back left the highest point on the green, so there's a side slope to work with.  Long left is dead.  No water or other hazards anywhere to be found.

Or you can build a reverse "Middle".   That's my template suggestion.

[Alex Miller]

OK, relevant response to the question.

When I read the first sentence of your opening statement...

"On JNC's "Short" hole thread, I loosely posited the concept of a "Middle" template hole."

I immediately thought that you meant a "Middle" template for a par 3.  And to me, that is more interesting.  I don't want to hijack the thread, but once you get to modern par 3.5 size, there's lots of room for variation.

Eden and Redan are specialized "Middle" holes.  Perhaps "Redan" is the stereotypical "Middle" hole.  But it's pretty specialized.

I say there's room to suggest a template for "Middle" par 3 style.  Give me a mid-iron or fairway wood hole with a big front right bunker and a large, kidney-shaped green that wraps around the bunker, and slopes consistently from back to front.  Make back left the highest point on the green, so there's a side slope to work with.  Long left is dead.  No water or other hazards anywhere to be found.

Or you can build a reverse "Middle".   That's my template suggestion.

This reverse "Middle" you speak of sounds like hole 6 at ANGC...

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