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Peter Pallotta

Please discuss - historically, philosophically, in practical and current expression.

I'll start: cynicism (also called, by Camus I think, the greatest temptation of intelligence) is a strong/harsh word. So I'd ask instead:

What comes after the idealism of the beginner's mind?

Peter

John Kavanaugh

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Re: "Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows."
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2011, 12:00:35 PM »
A beginner will not lose his innocence until he meets his first expert.

Adam Clayman

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Re: "Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows."
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2011, 12:37:24 PM »
That's BS John. More likely when the beginner thinks they are no longer a beginner open to learning. 
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mac Plumart

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Re: "Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows."
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2011, 12:58:59 PM »
Adam...I think you might be right.  In my line of work, I always say that once someone thinks they are truly an expert and, therefore, they have nothing left to learn then it is just about time for them to get hammered!!!  Maybe the same is true on golf architecture and/or the golf experience.  Once you think you "know" or "you know better" then everything is a let down.   
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Joe Perches

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Re: "Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows."
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2011, 01:22:32 PM »
What comes after the idealism of the beginner's mind?

Depends on the beginner.

For most:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect

Don_Mahaffey

Re: "Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows."
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2011, 02:08:28 PM »
I suppose there is a reason the word idealism is so often preceded by the word youthful. As the father in a family of many children I can attest to the hurt I feel when one of my children loses that youthful idealism to the realization that for the most part it is a cynical world we live in.

In golf I think there are very few idealists. Some Architects claim to be, sort of, but will also quickly use ďit's what the client wantedÖĒ line when something they design is less than ideal. Most all of us I guess are more realist then idealist, but the older I get the more I wish to revert back to the idea that the pursuit of perfect is a good thing even if Iíll never get there.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 02:14:55 PM by Don_Mahaffey »

George Pazin

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Re: "Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows."
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2011, 02:17:52 PM »
A beginner will not lose his innocence until he meets his first expert.

I think I'd say a beginner will not lose his innocence until he bears responsibility for his actions. It's always easier to Monday morning quarterback when you're not in the game.

Nice post, Don.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

RJ_Daley

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Re: "Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows."
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2011, 02:34:35 PM »
For purposes of applying this to golf:

"What comes after the idealism of the beginner's mind?"

I'd say reality or realization.  You realise it is hard, complicated, demanding, etc.  You realise it isn't as easy as it looks.   In this, I assume the 'beginner' first never played the game and takes it up because it looks ideal, appears effortless, or just seems like a nice environment in which to recreate, etc.  The ideals are all present for the beginner; look, feel, observation of fun or pleasant task.  But, once the beginner is into it, reality sets in.   There is where the crux of who sticks with it comes into the process.  One can become cynical from that point of reality setting in if they are either not up to the challenge, or just don't like it in some manner that repulses the senses, if you are wired that way.  But, I also think you can become cynical after the reality sets in about the nature of the endless pursuit of 'doing it well' , but still continue to pursue it for your own version of fun, challenge, or other motivating factors. 

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: "Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows."
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2011, 02:58:57 PM »
Don,
Ditto with the kids.

PP,
Once I realized (when it was I don't know) that there really were ideals worth striving for I stopped thinking about it.     
Now I just try to be as accurate as I can in what I do and in my assessments of all things, and let it go at that.

 
 
 


"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ian Andrew

Re: "Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows."
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2011, 03:22:36 PM »
Well since it was my tag line that got this going I feel I should weigh inÖ.

I didnít include the end of the quote because I donít agree. I like the first part because it points out that we all tend to start with an idealized view of a subject matter, which eventually gets transformed as we gain a new and deeper understanding of it. The more we learn, the more experience we gain, the more we can understand the subject.

Iíll confess itís a subtle nudge.

For the record, I find cynicism to be dismissive. I find that tends to come more from idealism than it does from experience.

Peter Pallotta

Re: "Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows."
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2011, 04:23:34 PM »
Thanks. Thoughtful and mature answers -- one might even say "experienced" answers.

You've already precluded my second thought: even though I'm a sucker for idealism (in the good sense), the word can also imply naivety, youthful or otherwise. 

But has no architect ever produced a top-flight golf course while in his naive and/or idealistic phase?

Is it possible for a great course to be the product of idealism?

Or does idealism not apply in the world of golf course architecture?

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: "Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows."
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2011, 04:27:24 PM »
PP,
Think NGLA and ANGC.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ian Andrew

Re: "Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows."
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2011, 04:40:04 PM »
Is it possible for a great course to be the product of idealism?

Peter,

I think it's more likely to occur when you have a clear focus on what you want to accomplish.

For some it comes through conviction or idealism.
For others it comes through collecting enough ideas to have the right answers when given the opportunity to accomplish something better.

Mac Plumart

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Re: "Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows."
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2011, 05:52:53 PM »
Isn't the Bandon complex the ideal type of golf the Mr. Keiser was going for?  It sure sounds like it.  NGLA is and was that ideal course that CBM was going for.  Pine Valley, Cyrpess Point, The Golf Club, Sand Hills.  I'm sure I could come up with more.  So, yes...idealism most definately applies to golf course architecture.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: "Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows."
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2011, 06:00:50 PM »
Isn't the Bandon complex the ideal type of golf the Mr. Keiser was going for?  It sure sounds like it.  NGLA is and was that ideal course that CBM was going for.  Pine Valley, Cyrpess Point, The Golf Club, Sand Hills.  I'm sure I could come up with more.  So, yes...idealism most definately applies to golf course architecture.

I doubt if Keiser expected to have to dumb down the 14th at Bandon Trails or pay someone to tote fat dolts up the hill.  I bet he is a touch more cynical about the public golfer than before he entered their world.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: "Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows."
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2011, 10:50:36 PM »
Mac,
Bandon is good, but ideal? Too many concessions to the "retail" golfer made BD as much about business as good golf.
Lets not confuse good with ideal.

JC Jones

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Re: "Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows."
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2011, 11:02:44 PM »
Most people either describe me as an idealist or a cynic.  I can't figure out how I can be both.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Charlie Goerges

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Re: "Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows."
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2011, 11:09:29 PM »
Many years ago when I was living in Prague and I began to feel that my fellow "artists" were producing unconscionably derivative garbage I decided to make my commentary on that situation by making my next piece literally out of garbage. Rather than producing the desired effect, I found that not only was my work so much better than that other garbage that my point was entirely missed, it was also incredibly lucrative. This situation drove my cynicism deeper and so I felt that I had to get my point across. If garbage wasn't an apt description of everyone else's work, what would be? Then it dawned on me...
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Mike_Young

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Re: "Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows."
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2011, 11:19:03 PM »
I assume this topic is slanted toward GCA....
hmmm....seems to me that any field that has a very low barrier to entry allows for a quick ride toward that "perception of expertise"....
I consider myself a realistic idealist......and soft experience in GCA allows for more idealism....

Read the book "Outliers"..the 10,000 hour concept holds a lot of water
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

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