[Jason Topp]

I found this ASGCA flyer on the internet and the time frames listed are very surpising to me.  I have always assumed that a properly maintained green can last forever.  

http://www.asgca.org/images/stories/publications/qa-life-cycle.pdf

Comments?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Jason,

It is interesting that some of the most admired greens throughout the world are 5x as old, and still function perfectly, isn't it?

[Lou_Duran]

According to sources deemed reliable, as of 1978, OSU Scarlet's greens, with the exception of #17, had not been rebuilt since construction during the Depression.  I played with a couple professors who worked on the crew that built the course and they both said that the greens were "pushed-up" using the soil which was mostly clay, dug to build the large irrigation lake.  During my seven+ years in Columbus, the greens ranged from being often atrocious, sometimes acceptable, to occasionally, around college tournaments, decent.  High volume of play and limited budgets were the two primary reasons given for their less than desirable condition.  Perhaps they should have been rebuilt before, but taking the couse out of play for much of a season made that nearly impossible.  I know that the Nicklaus redo of 2006 caused much consternation among the alumni members because the course was not available for a season.  

[Pete Lavallee]

Jason,

Although it wasn't specifically stated, I believe they are reffering to USGA greens. I have heard that they no longer drain properly after 30 years which prompts the reconstruction. Jeff is quite right that 90% of Top 100 course have their original pushup greens still functioning beautifully.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Would greens have lasted forever if they weren't pushed to today's height of cut?
Pushing greens to those heights also effects the cultivar and mutations.
Even some of the very old greens have been adding drainage to keep up with these heights and 100% perfect all the time.

[Mark Luckhardt]

Sometimes the most "admired" greens in the world,as Jeff put it, just need to modernized with their infrastructure.
If this can be achieved non-invasively, whats the harm?

We are all not still driving around in cars from the 1920's are we? Modernization without changing external green contours, is a win-win situation for most clubs.

Having said that, I have built 100's of USGA greens as well.
Properly managed, I think their life cycle is more than 30 years, although not with bermudagrass.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason,

I would think, that if a green was only designed/built for a 15 year shelf life, that the architect and others better have Insurance and a good attorney.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

It's USGA greens are expected to last at least 25-30 years. A lot depends on how they are maintained - thatch build up is one issue as it will slow drainage. Topdressing also can cause issues especially if it changed or not kept consistent and as mentioned in another post the original contours may have been 'topdressed away' and under 4,5,6+ inches of sand and thatch, so a rebuild may be needed to return them to their original state.

Another is the basic concept of a USGA spec green is that it designed to be/create a perched watertable so the point between the layers of the green where the water is held can cause it to go anaerobic and it may also slow drainage which may necessitate a rebuild.

As mentioned above older push-up greens have other issues but don't necessarily have the issues that a bad USGA green may have and have survived/performed fine for many years as have most USGA greens. The recommendation is more an alert to say that performance may not be optimum after that time, just like a best-before date, and not necessarily that it will go bad at a certain point.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have seen it happen many different ways, from USGA greens still having good soil structure on the bottom (below the thatch) to sands compacting.  It was orignally thought that sands should never compact, but it turns out, sand isn't just sand, and some do.  Add in wind or flood borne contaminents, poor choice of topdressing materials, etc. and the USGA started to point out that their greens simply may not last forever, perhaps to cover themselves.

As to topsoil greens still existing, I know there are many.  They may be some of the most admired, but are also among the least played and highly maintained.  And, they have probably been aggressively aerified with plugs removed and sand added back in the holes to modify their profile somewhat, even without rebuilding.

How well greens last is a combo of many factors, and its not a black and white USGA vs topsoil method type of thing.  Examples exist all along the spectrum.

[Gary Daughters]

Mark L.,

Why would bermuda greens have a shorter life cycle?

[Chris Johnston]

In addition to the soiul profiles mentioned here, another impediment to green longevity is the encroachment of non preferred grasses which impact surface consistency.  The Poa Annua infestation of Bent  greens has helped to shorten green lifespan across the country.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

In addition to the soiul profiles mentioned here, another impediment to green longevity is the encroachment of non preferred grasses which impact surface consistency.  The Poa Annua infestation of Bent  greens has helped to shorten green lifespan across the country.

Good point but resurfacing can accomplish this without the need for a total rebuild. One option would be to kill the existing turf off and reseed and the other - which is a little more involved - would be to remove the thatch/topdressing layer and return the green to its original shape (which would also necessitate redoing the surrounds), obviously rebuilding the entire thing would work also but if there are no other issues it's a needless expense.

[JMEvensky]

Mark L.,

Why would bermuda greens have a shorter life cycle?

I'd also like to know--especially regarding Champion and other hybrids.

[Kevin Pallier]

I'm just glad that not everyone spends the $'s and focuses on building USGA spec. greens.

My home club's have functioned just fine overtime and I find it amusing that one's that have been put in over the last few years require more maintenance and attention than those that have been there for decade upon decade.

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

   I believe the primary purpose for that list is to aid with depresiation schedules, capital expense and master planning.

[Mark Luckhardt]

Gary D,

Most, if not all bermudagrass creates over abundant thatch layering after 10-15 years. Most clubs will remove the top 3-4" of greens mix(thatch) and regrass bermuda greens every 10-15 years.

This is much less costly than a total rebuild as drainage and major shaping isn't being done.

Partly, due to aggressive growth patterns, and partly to 10-12 month growing season for this warm season grass, which creates a thatch buildup that cannot be dealth with using turf cultivation. Cool season grass thatch buildup can be normally dealt with with aerifying,deeptining etc.

[Mike_Young]

Gary D,

Most, if not all bermudagrass creates over abundant thatch layering after 10-15 years. Most clubs will remove the top 3-4" of greens mix(thatch) and regrass bermuda greens every 10-15 years.

This is much less costly than a total rebuild as drainage and major shaping isn't being done.

Partly, due to aggressive growth patterns, and partly to 10-12 month growing season for this warm season grass, which creates a thatch buildup that cannot be dealth with using turf cultivation. Cool season grass thatch buildup can be normally dealt with with aerifying,deeptining etc.

Mark,
Just looked you up on your site below....really like your product...
But one question.....where I have worked not many courses remove three to four inches of bermuda every 15 years....I can see where it would be good but most just can't do it...don't you think aggressive verticutting and vertigrooming with some other practices can keep from having to do such....

[Don_Mahaffey]

The newer ultradwarfs haven't even been out 15 years yet. And, it took a few years for us to even figure out how to manage them properly. I believe bermuda greens can last a lot longer and you can keep up with the thatch. We certainly have a lot better tools to do so then we did 15 years ago.
My take is bermuda greens have been redone every 10-15 years because that's about how often the latest greatest grasses have come out. There's not a bunch of 25 year old or older bermuda greens out there because the grasses 25 years ago weren't very good.

[Mark Luckhardt]

As Don has said the new bermudagrasses probably won't need a redo after 15 years..
These new grasses mimic bentgrass more and more everyday.
Superintendents left to their own devices should be able to control the future thatch accumulation.
As long as they are given the freedom to cultivate the thatch, then I would agree the new greens should last longer than 15 years.

Problem is that type of freedom gets in the way of the game of golf.

[Steve Curry]

The life of a green as was suggested is tied to the level of expectation and without question to the qaulity of care.  Many are surprised to hear that some of these aged greens have drainage from decades ago that has slowly failed.  To Mark L's point these older greens need structural updates.

Steve

[TEPaul]

"Are golf greens really only supposed to last 15-30 years?"


Jason:

Of course not.

However, I'm quite sure that some may only last that long for various reasons. On that note I would be somewhere between what Pat said (if so the architect should probably have a good insurance policy and a good attorney and what Steve Curry just said).

When one talks about a green "lasting" that should not mean that there may not be a whole laundry list of things that can be and are done to it over the years from drainage fixes to over-all maintenance considerations, agromonic and otherwise.

If greens were only supposed to last 15-30 years then how could there be so many great ones still out there that have been in existence for so many years or even up to a century and such at Myopia's----eg about 110 years old now?!

And in my opinion, it is not only about the green itself, it's also about the grass on them. For instance, the amazing poa on those Oakmont greens is probably well over 50 years old now and it is something else to play on and look at. I was out on #14 at 6am a couple of summers ago as they were mowing and rolling it and looking down at that poa was like looking at about a million pin ends sticking up at you. And I'm not talking about pin heads, I'm talking about the sharp end of a pin!! 

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