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Tony_Muldoon

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Braids Quartered Greens
« on: May 05, 2010, 09:32:09 AM »

I was at Hankley with Scott and we discussed that 7th Green.  One phenomenal hole.

Here’s two photo’s of the green from Philip’s thread.





From the pictures it’s not entirely clear but the green has 4 sections building clockwise from front right they increase in height.  I haven’t  seen the Club history but Braid extended the course from 9 to 18 holes. Colt later added 3 new holes and did some (to me) unidentified work on the rest of the course. It’s possible that the 7th green is untouched form the original 9th and therefore not Braid at all. However the first 6 holes all have relatively simple greens with a pronounced tilt, e.g. L-R or F-B, that kind of thing with only a little shaping involved beyond having it all flow in the same direction. If I was asked to characterise a ‘typical ‘Braid green that’s what I would expect, with a two or three tier (with big drops) thrown in for variety.  Then we got to the 7th and suddenly there’s a lot of movement and that 4 section green got me thinking.

About a month ago I played East Devon where Colt and mostly  Braid again had an input, and it had a Quartered  green. It’s hard to photograph, particularly in the conditions I had that day, but in this case the 4 Quarters were even more distinct and  clearly shown in the Scoresaver.





Pin is back right and this photo is from the rear.




When I saw the East Devon green, déjà vu, I have been there before. I’ve searched my photos and can find nothing but I have a strong feeling that there’s an example  at Braid’s Shanklin  and Sandown but unfortunately I have no photos to prove this.


So group, have you ever seen one of these greens and was it possibly a Braid?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Braids Quartered Greens
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2010, 09:34:04 AM »
The 18th at Oakmont is similar, no?  I did one in Las Vegas (I think its NLE at Stallion Mountain now) and it is a different way to make a green within a green type target.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

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Re: Braids Quartered Greens
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2010, 09:59:11 AM »
Tony

I wonder if Pennard's 8th fits the bill?  I never thought of it as quarters, but I spose it is and it does look similar to your Hankley photo.



Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Braids Quartered Greens
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2010, 10:10:38 AM »
I think this green concept also works well on a par 5. The greens within a green are small you going at them with a longer club on a par 4 is asking a lot.

You also give a good amount of thought on when you should go for it in two or where to place your second to have a chance at getting it close.

PB Dye built a green like this at the par 5 8th at Hidden Glen in Wisconsin. You can see the pin position playing #6 so you have a chance to plan your strategy. Its a fun hole.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 10:16:07 AM by Mike McGuire »

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Braids Quartered Greens
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2010, 10:42:15 AM »
Does a green like this have lots of unpinnable areas? What is its effect on wear? 8

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Braids Quartered Greens
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2010, 11:35:52 AM »
Mark,

the one I built was certainly larger than that one shown.  I can't recall how big, but it was over 8500 SF, and large enough that it was the only green I ever put a sprinkler in the middle (other than the putting course at Wild Wing).
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike McGuire

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Re: Braids Quartered Greens
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2010, 02:48:56 PM »
The green at hidden glen is <4500 sq. ft.  Its 84 ft across and 54 deep.

A bit small - but on a par 5 its interesting. Not many available pins, maybe 2 in each quadrant.

If you go at the green in two its blind. You have to get to point B before you can see the green. The green is elevated so a miss in the wrong place is a tough up and down.



« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 02:55:44 PM by Mike McGuire »

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Braids Quartered Greens
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2011, 05:06:44 PM »
Bump. 

Buda is two days away and the 7th will "knock ya socks off!"


Either Boony or Bennie mentioned another green like this in a midlands course profile but I can't find the link.

(Have to report the Yanks is playin real  good, but Ulrich and I adopted Irish tactics, letting them walk all over us. The plan is to up our game once the real action starts. Yep that's the plan....).


Mark R.  ON the examples I’ve seen each step is no more than 12-18” so wear and tear is fine but it must reduce  available areas, but not to a really marked effect. However at Shanklin there was a three tier green cut at a moderate speed that you just couldn’t putt down the 2-3’ slopes and stay on the green. Braid again I believe.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Braids Quartered Greens
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2011, 06:38:37 PM »
Sounds like it ought to be out west somewhere....that green was both "drawn" and "quartered."
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ben Stephens

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Re: Braids Quartered Greens
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2011, 02:46:07 AM »
Bump. 

Either Boony or Bennie mentioned another green like this in a midlands course profile but I can't find the link.


There is the 7th green at Luffenham Heath - I am not sure if its a John White (worked for Colt) or a Braid green - My feeling it is a mulitple level Braid green despite the previous green being so flat! The 18th is multi levelled.

Look forward to playing Hankley tmw

Cheers
Ben

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Braids Quartered Greens
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2011, 06:46:10 AM »

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Braids Quartered Greens New
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2011, 04:57:42 PM »
Thanks Ben, I have played and enjoyed Luffenham and maybe that’s where I first saw one (it was a about 5 years ago.)  Another mostly Braid with Colt additions?


The 7th is a wonderful hole that I looked at closely but sadly not closely enough with the camera. It remains one of the highlights of the day.  

395 yards, The drive is over gorse,  a la TOC.  

The second shot is to a greatly raised green that sits up and dares you to have a go.


The Scoresaver gives more green detail than most but sadly my picture doesn’t show it all.

I Was sure this green was ‘created’ and took this picture of the rear to show the build up.




Interestingly all the ‘Braid’ examples are on elevated greens where you can’t determine where the flag is on the green.  We have 4 examples of this and yet this kind of deception is not typical Braid.  Just this one green shape thrown in for variety.  Does the Moreton book say who the construction crew were on each job.

Years the clubs opened.  When did Braid AND Colt visit?
Luffenham  1911
Pennard  1896
Hankley  1896
East Devon  1902

« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 05:07:32 PM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!