[Patrick_Mucci]

provide tactical margins of error at the green end ?

Something Sean Arble and Tom Doak stated got me thinking about the proximity of greenside bunkers, in terms of margins at the green end.

At a course I'm familiar with, the bunkers are cut close to the green.
There's probably not more than a mower width between the bunkers and the putting surfaces.

This allows hole locations to become more tactical, more challenging.

It also reduces the margins of error on misjudged or mis-hit shots.

On other courses, I've noticed the bunkers are offset from the putting surface by a good distance.
This allows marginal or misjudged shots the luxury of attaining the putting surface, fringe or nearby fairway.

But, these bunkers leave the golfer with a longer bunker shot should he end up in those bunkers.

Some greenside bunkers, with relatively steep faces, feed balls that come up short, a good distance away from the putting surface, making for long bunker recoveries.

What's your prefeence and why ?
And could you cite courses where your preference is the norm ?

Lastly, are you a good, fair or poor bunker player ?

[Sean_A]

I think it depends on the intent/goal of the archie and how a course is maintained.  My response is based on what I consider to be the best conditions - firm.  

I am all for tight bunkers if there is space to work a ball onto a green if not necessarily close to the more risky hole locations so long as the golfer has earned the correct angle off the tee.  I see tight bunkers as the delayed punishment for the off-line tee shot.  I also like bunkers set away from greens which guard (both visually and physically) the best way to take advantage of a general slope onto and part of a green.  In other words, the player has to fly the ball the correct distance, flight and line to take maximum advantage of a slope after the ball lands.  These bunkers are also good for the guy who has hit a drive which isn't stellar, but he can still get home if he negotiates the short bunker properly.  I think I am more impressed by bunkers set off greens because getting their placement right takes a bit more savvy and experience than tucking sand tight to greens, but both are necessary for good design.  

Here are a few great examples of wonderful set back bunkers.

#7 at New Zealand: that bunker on the left is likely 20 yards short of the green and 40 yards short of the flag.


#11 New Zealand: This bunker is about 25 yards short of the green.  It protects against the player driving up the right and it also protects against the player driving up the correct left side accessing the slope to the left too easily.


I really like this right bunker on New Zealand's 17th.  Because the green is already an awkward angle for those approaching from too far right, this bunker can be set back a bit (its about 8 yards back) to also bother those who are coming in from too far left with an equally awkward angle across the green.  This bunker leaves enough room to temp players.
 

I think I am a good bunker player at my standard of handicap.  Good enough where the depth of bunkers rarely sets me on edge.

Ciao

[Mac Plumart]

First off, GREAT question/thread...

Secondly...to answer your last question...I am not a good golfer (11.6 index and been playing for 2.5 years)...and my bunker play is pretty much where my entire game is...erratic!  At times, it borders on being quite good...other times it takes me multiple shots to get out of a bunker.  Bear this in mind as I answer the question.

Concerning the placement of bunkers...the following are entirely and stricly my own ideas  

To me bunkers and hazards in general are viewed by the golfer as a means to punish bad shots.  However, I feel they should be set up to make the game (and the specific shots that involve them) more interesting.  Along these lines, I feel that the bunker (hazard) should be placed where the golfer would be, at least, initially inclined to play.

If this is done then the player will have to use his mind to dream up another avenue of approach to the hole OR drum up enough intestinal fortitude to attempt a shot that "takes on" the hazard.  

With this in mind and in the spirit of your thread, I like bunkers right on the green and not seperated from it.  The farther from the green the more they are desigend to punish a bad shot.  The more in the line of play, or right on the green, the hazards the more thrilling the required shot.

Here is a photo of one of my favorite holes and its bunker placement.  Also remember the ground to the right of the green is hilly and if a miss goes there it would require a chip to a green which slopes toward the water which lies behind the green and to the left of it.  Fun hole!!!

[JMEvensky]

I,too,took to heart something Tom Doak said about this.Paraphrasing,the biggest bang/buck thing a club could do regarding "toughening" would be to move the faces of  bunkers closer to the greens.

My understanding was that a lot of 60's and 70's courses were designed with bunkers away from greens due to the width of tri-plex mowers.I thought it was mostly maintenance related,but I may have misunderstood.My home course is this way.

To your question,I think most golfers prefer the further removed bunkers simply based on abject fear of bunker shots.They figure that a chip from grass will be easier.

Of course,the same golfers who fear bunker shots also miss greens much wider than they think.

I think bunker play represents the greatest problem for hackers(here we go again).It really doesn't matter whether it's a long or short shot;a high lip or no lip at all.I'm certain you know and have played with guys for whom a "sandie" is defined as just getting a ball onto the green.

As to preference,I like bunkers cut into greens as closely as possible.I like the look and I like the risk/reward inherent.The best example I've ever seen was a picture posted here recently from Australia (RMW?).

If it matters,I'm a very good bunker player,by any amateur standard.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Index 6.7... my bunker game is much better than my long game

I think the best bunkered courses offer a variety of both because they test every aspect of your bunker game. Pinehurst #2 is a great example of a course that features just about every type of greenside bunkers. You get to hit both explosion shots close pins and longer running bunker shots, which can be played with a variety of clubs as well.

If I had to pick the lesser of 2 evils, either all pushed back, or close to the green, I much prefer the closer. I think they provide for much more exciting and strategic approaches, as well as make bunkers more of a hazard since hitting explosion shots is more difficult for the average golfer. I do however find that here in the North East, most courses are bunkered like this with the bunkers positioned right up against the greens, so why most of our members cant figure out how to get out them is beyond me... its the same damn shot every time!


Just about every bunker at Bethpage Red, unlike its big brother, has bunkers pushed well back of the green at perfect distances for mowers.... It completely drives me nuts!

[John Moore II]

I'm a fairly good bunker player. To me, the key to all of those has to start with what kind of course we are talking about. On a course that spins out 35,000+ rounds a year, you can't (don't want to) have the bunkers too close to the greens because of the extra time it will take to play. (Certainly a group of guys who understand how to play golf aren't really slowed down by the bunkers but most public golfers are. Now at a private club, it doesn't matter, these folks play the course often and know how to get around things.

I think the bunkers should be in the most strategic place possible given the nature of a certain hole. That might be near to the surface, might be farther away. It all depends on the individual course and individual hole situations.

[Jason Topp]

I like them eating into the green.  Such bunkers make the decision of whether to go for the pin or hit it safely to the middle much more interesting. 

[Tim Gavrich]

I've historically been an above-average bunker player, and I love bunkers cut close to the edge of the green.  I'm always sad when they seem to be floating 20 feet or more out in the rough.

[Alex Miller]

I am in the bunker close to the green camp.

I'm a very good bunker player and I actually think that bunkers cut into the greens benefit the bad golfers too.
If a hacker is in a bunker they will more likely than not, chunk it out, or roll it up the slope. I see bad players barely get the ball out far more than they over shoot the target with a thin shot. Therefore bunkers close to the putting surface should make for more interesting golf and provide an easier shot for high handicappers.

[Mike McGuire]

Bunkers should be close to the green. They will have steeper faces so balls do not hang up on the sides and release back into the bunker.

[Mike McGuire]

If a bunker is 25 yards short of the green can it be called a greenside bunker? If yes, what is the outer limit?

[Sean_A]

If a bunker is 25 yards short of the green can it be called a greenside bunker? If yes, what is the outer limit?

Mike

Thats a good question.  I think on firm courses yes, they can be considered green-side.  On soft courses, I think the bunkers 25 yards off greens are really green-side and they often wouldn't have nearly the strategic importance of a truly green-side bunker.  On long par 3s and drivable par 4s is where these sorts of bunkers are well placed for soft or firm courses. 

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

If a bunker is 25 yards short of the green can it be called a greenside bunker? If yes, what is the outer limit?

This I would call an 'Approach' bunker, particularly if is tight to the line of play...

In addition, I think when Sean posts his photos of the New Zealand bunkers, many of these too are 'Approach' bunkers placed by Tom Simpson (I guess?) to add dead ground and deception... I don't think this is what the thread is about...

Do you have bunkers faces tucked right in to greens?... Aestheically I like this look... and golf-wise, it certainly toughens up an approach for a good player and can add excellent strategic values back in to the angles....

Off the top of my head, I'd be wary of two things:

1. Maintenance of the green edges if right up against bunker faces
2. Ensuring that a shot that misses wide of the bunker is not rewarded with an easier recovery than one that just misses and is therefore inside the bunker... Whilst OK on one or two occasions, this could happen regularly on a course with tight greenside bunkers if the design is not fully thought through...

[Tom MacWood]

Green-side bunkers should be close to greens, several yards short of greens, completely surrounding greens, completely absent from greens, guarding the front of greens, open in front of greens, etc etc

IMO formulas are bad for golf architecture and variety is good.

[Yannick Pilon]

I agree with Tom here,

There should not be a formula repeated all over a course.  However, I see it more and more often.  Clubs often demand, especially during renovation processes, to have bunkers a bit further away from greens to facilitate maintenance of the rough around the green cavities.  I personally understand their demand, but I also believe it tends to dumb down the architecture in the sense that bunkers are suddenly less in play, and people that end up in them have to play longer shots, which most people have trouble with....

This is a good question that does not have a definite answer....

YP

[Patrick_Mucci]

If there's NO formula*, then there can't be a STYLE, and as we know, certain archictects had a distinquishable style, one that was clearly identifiable in the features and hole designs.

* "Formula" is a poor choice of words.

Certainly we see "themes" "styles" and "patterns from the great architects on the great courses, do those themes, styles and patterns make them bad golf courses and bad architects ?

I think not.

So, don't get hung up on the "word", "formula".

"Formula" doesn't necessarily equate to bland or undistinguished architecture.

Golf courses, great golf courses, are replete  with"formula" like design

[JESII]

Pat,

I think a good bunker should be able to stand on its own...and for it to really stand on its own it needs to bite into a portion of the green.

I cannot think of an entire course featuring single bunkers protecting the majority of its greens but I can think of holes...more than that, I can think of holes that would benefit by removing one or more greenside bunkers in favor of retaining just one...

For example, the right bunker on #10 at Winged Foot West would be stronger, in my opinion, if the smaller left bunker were removed. I think it would be stronger purely because it would be the only one (I consider the short one an approach bunker, not greenside) there and would do an equal job of dictating strategy from the tee.

[RSLivingston_III]

IMO If while standing in a greenside bunker you can see the putting surface, that bunker is crap.

[Bill Brightly]

Great question. Seems that most prefer bunkers cut as close to the green as possible,(so do I) but guess what? That style favors low handicappers, IMO, because most single digit handicaps feel like they can get short bunker shots up an down an acceptable % of the time...I am  3.5 index and a good bunker player. I'll take the consistancy of a bunker lies over the "randomness" of thick greenside rough any day. But if I hit it bad enough to be in a bunker 10-30 yards off the green, my % of up and downs will drop dramatically. I would much prefer a lob wedge from rough at that distance.

[JESII]

Lastly, are you a good, fair or poor bunker player ?

I forgot until Bill's post...I stink out of bunkers. For a scratch, I'm atrocious. For a 20 I would be about average.

[BCrosby]

Sully - I've heard about your game. I'm calling BS.   

Bob

[JESII]

Trust me...I'm very tactical and strategic but sometimes it's just not enough...the last greenside bunker shot I hit went about 85 yards

[Bill Brightly]

Trust me...I'm very tactical and strategic but sometimes it's just not enough...the last greenside bunker shot I hit went about 85 yards

Step one: forget your last bunker shot! You must compartmentalize, like Tiger

[JESII]

Is compartmentalizing the same as controlled schizophrenia?

[RSLivingston_III]

How about getting rid of the fringe cut (and the rough cut that is so prevalent) and get the green going up to the bunkers again?

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