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Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #200 on: March 18, 2010, 12:45:07 PM »
Steve
Are you referring to this article in 1918?

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1918/ag205g.pdf

You are drawing those conclusions from this article? I don't see how you can conclude he was not involved in the design process from this article.

Phil_the_Author

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #201 on: March 18, 2010, 01:08:59 PM »
I was simply going to post the article that Steve mentioned where Tilly hired White as the greenkeeper for Shawnee in 1913, but then I noticed Tom's question, and one that I think is a good one, where he asked:

"Do you think it is fair and accurate to compare Robert White with Govan and Pickering, two dedicated construction men? I don't believe either man designed a golf course during their entire lifetimes. Were you aware White became a fairly accomplished golf architect in his own right (unlike Govan and Pickering)? He was one of the founders of the ASGCA. What was White and Raynor's professional design experience in 1915?"

Now I don't know the answer to that question, but it did make me wonder why Tilly would hire him as a greenkeeper in November of 1913 if he was an accomplished golf course architect and viewed as such at that time. That doesn't make sense to me. So I took a quick look at White's history leading up to his hiring at Shawnee and was quite surprised by what I came across.

In the March 1910 issue of the American Golfer magazine, it mentions a planned renovation of Ravisloe and that White was the "Golf Professional."



Interestingly, 3 years later, in the May 1913 issue, it is reported that Laurence Auchterlonie has been hired as the "instructor" at Ravisloe and that White would remain in his position as the "regular club professional..."



What makes this confusing is how White himself referred to himself just a few months earlier in the January 1913 issue:



Why didn't he name himself as the Ravisloe Professional? Or if he was going to change his title for the article, why didn't he call himself a golf course architect, especially if he had designed and overseen a major change to Ravisloe just 3 years earlier? WHY did he view himself as the "Greenkeeper?"

Even more intriguing is what White himself wrote about the Ravisloe course at that time in this article:



It seems apparent then that there were no substantive changes as the 1910 article intimated, or at least only ones that may have lengthened some holes. For certain the green complexes were the same.

So how did his contemporaries view Robert White in 1913? Notice how, when he hired him for Shawnee in November of 1913, Tilly referred to him as "Robert White, who for a number of years has been Greenkeeper at Ravisloe..."

Greenkeeper... NOT architect nor professional, but Greenkeeper. Yes, he was a professional and served as such at Ravisloe and yes, he would go on to be a founding member of the PGA & later on an accomplished architect, but in Novemeber of 1913, Tilly certainly viewed him as foremost a GREENKEEPER and one who specialized in turf. That is why he referred to him that way and stated that, "White is enthusiastic with the layout [Redesigned and rebuilt Shawnee course] which has been given over to him to TURF..."



Why is this important? Because much has been made as to White being a supposedly experienced and somewhat important architect at that time when Raynor wasn't.

From what I see above, and I could be wrong as this is simply my opinion, I think that view of White is simply wishful thinking.


Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #202 on: March 18, 2010, 01:56:50 PM »
Phil
From what I've read its unclear if White was hired as greenkeeper at Shawnee or simply hired to redesign the golf course. A few months later he was laying out a new course on Long Island, before eventually being hired by North Shore.

Phil_the_Author

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #203 on: March 18, 2010, 02:52:10 PM »
Tom,

You can't get any more definitively clear than what Tilly stated in the article where he announced that White was going to Shawnee:

"This arrangement is considered ideal and the NEW GREENKEEPER WHITE..."

He was hired as the greenkeeper and nothing more.

There is also absolutely NO DOUBT that he was NOT hired to do any design work at Shawnee and that he didn't do any. Tilly redesigned and rerouted the course with the work completed BEFORE White was hired as grrenkeeper. The design and construction of the revamped course was finished by September of 1913 and White didn't begin working until NOVEMBER of 1913. When he arrived, White was specifically put in charge of the "TURF" grow-in. This makes sense as he was viewed as a turf expert when at Ravisloe. Also, it was as a turf expert that he was appreciated in the 1919 article. His work on the CONDITION of the putting greens of North Shore is why the article was prefaced by the editor writing, "The beautiful condition of the North Shore putting-greens so impressed us that we asked their creator, Mr. Robert White, to tell us how he did it."

It is in regard to the EXCELLENT TURF and NOT the design of the greens that the Editor used the term "creator."

The editor goes on to further state that he viewed White's work at North Shore in the sense of his being the GREENKEEPER by stating, "This is not by any means the first example of Mr. White's genius as a greenkeeper par excellence..."

By the way, he finishes this introduction by again defining what White did at Shawnee and Ravisloe. "His work at Ravisloe and Shawnee bears eloquent testimony of his rare ability in this direction..." That "direction" being as greenkeeper.

Interestingly, the final paragraph of the editor's introduction actually takes him down a few pegs by his statement, "We are, however, not quite in accord with Mr. White that the superb condition of the greens is due to the top-dressings. Rather we should say it is wholly attributable to the excellent foundation layers described. top dressings, in our opinion, are a fruitful source of many of the troubles of so many kinds..."

Amazing statement that. First White is a "genius par excellence" and then its 'he's wrong in what he's written!'

 
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 02:55:11 PM by Philip Young »

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #204 on: March 18, 2010, 04:02:09 PM »
How long did White work at Shawnee?

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #205 on: March 19, 2010, 06:32:03 AM »
Tom,

You can't get any more definitively clear than what Tilly stated in the article where he announced that White was going to Shawnee:

"This arrangement is considered ideal and the NEW GREENKEEPER WHITE..."

He was hired as the greenkeeper and nothing more.

There is also absolutely NO DOUBT that he was NOT hired to do any design work at Shawnee and that he didn't do any. Tilly redesigned and rerouted the course with the work completed BEFORE White was hired as grrenkeeper. The design and construction of the revamped course was finished by September of 1913 and White didn't begin working until NOVEMBER of 1913. When he arrived, White was specifically put in charge of the "TURF" grow-in. This makes sense as he was viewed as a turf expert when at Ravisloe. Also, it was as a turf expert that he was appreciated in the 1919 article. His work on the CONDITION of the putting greens of North Shore is why the article was prefaced by the editor writing, "The beautiful condition of the North Shore putting-greens so impressed us that we asked their creator, Mr. Robert White, to tell us how he did it."

It is in regard to the EXCELLENT TURF and NOT the design of the greens that the Editor used the term "creator."

The editor goes on to further state that he viewed White's work at North Shore in the sense of his being the GREENKEEPER by stating, "This is not by any means the first example of Mr. White's genius as a greenkeeper par excellence..."

By the way, he finishes this introduction by again defining what White did at Shawnee and Ravisloe. "His work at Ravisloe and Shawnee bears eloquent testimony of his rare ability in this direction..." That "direction" being as greenkeeper.

Interestingly, the final paragraph of the editor's introduction actually takes him down a few pegs by his statement, "We are, however, not quite in accord with Mr. White that the superb condition of the greens is due to the top-dressings. Rather we should say it is wholly attributable to the excellent foundation layers described. top dressings, in our opinion, are a fruitful source of many of the troubles of so many kinds..."

Amazing statement that. First White is a "genius par excellence" and then its 'he's wrong in what he's written!'
 

Phil
Was White still working at Shawnee when it was announced he would be designing this new course on Long Island (Golf Magazine 12/1914)?

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #206 on: March 19, 2010, 06:54:59 AM »
George
Back to your timeline. What do you base your dates upon - when the club was formed, when Raynor was fist engaged or when the course was completed? And during the years of 1914, 1915, and 1916 how do you differentiate between what is CBM and what is Raynor, it seems to me CBM was involved in quite a few of the projects you are crediting to Raynor?

Phil_the_Author

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #207 on: March 19, 2010, 07:24:03 AM »
Tom,

I am uncertain as to exactly when White left Shawnee. I will be able to answer it exactly in about a month as I will be traveling to Shawnee where I am being given access to their historical archives and records. I'll let you know then if not sooner. I believe, though, that he was still employed by Shawnee at this time and that he didn't leave there until the fall of 1915.

So how could he have been "working on the plans for several weeks" if he was still employed by Shawnee? That is quite easy to understand because as Greenkeeper of Shawnee his work would end in the late fall as the course was closed to all until spring. There was very little for him to do as the Inn changed to its winter resort mode.

Can you explain why the Editor of his 1919 article viewed him as a greenkeeper "par excellence" rather than an established golf course architect? Can you explain why Tilly viewed him as someone who had spent the last few years at Ravisloe as the "greenkeeper" when he hired him for Shawnee? Can you explain why, White himself, at a time when he was employed as the general golf professional at Ravisloe, would call himself the "greenkeeper of Ravisloe" rather than as the golf professional or golf course architect?

To me, these point to a man who, although he may have been testing the waters of course designing as a career, was unable to find substantive work and was covering his bases. Now that may be an incorrect characterization, but based upon these it is hard to believe that he was in anyway viewed by his contemporaries as being more experienced in the field of golf course architecture than Raynor who was at least actively working in course design and building full-time prior to North Shore whereas White clearly was not...



« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 08:38:57 AM by Philip Young »

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #208 on: March 19, 2010, 11:10:06 AM »
Tom,

I am uncertain as to exactly when White left Shawnee. I will be able to answer it exactly in about a month as I will be traveling to Shawnee where I am being given access to their historical archives and records. I'll let you know then if not sooner. I believe, though, that he was still employed by Shawnee at this time and that he didn't leave there until the fall of 1915.

So how could he have been "working on the plans for several weeks" if he was still employed by Shawnee? That is quite easy to understand because as Greenkeeper of Shawnee his work would end in the late fall as the course was closed to all until spring. There was very little for him to do as the Inn changed to its winter resort mode.

Can you explain why the Editor of his 1919 article viewed him as a greenkeeper "par excellence" rather than an established golf course architect? Can you explain why Tilly viewed him as someone who had spent the last few years at Ravisloe as the "greenkeeper" when he hired him for Shawnee? Can you explain why, White himself, at a time when he was employed as the general golf professional at Ravisloe, would call himself the "greenkeeper of Ravisloe" rather than as the golf professional or golf course architect?

Are the two - grass expert and golf architect - mutually exclusive? Obviously not, there are numerous examples of greenkeeper/golf architects and grass expert/golf architects...not to mention construction man/golf architects, like Raynor.

What point are you trying to make?


To me, these point to a man who, although he may have been testing the waters of course designing as a career, was unable to find substantive work and was covering his bases. Now that may be an incorrect characterization, but based upon these it is hard to believe that he was in anyway viewed by his contemporaries as being more experienced in the field of golf course architecture than Raynor who was at least actively working in course design and building full-time prior to North Shore whereas White clearly was not...

Is this conjecture on your part or is this based on research you've conducted into White's career? If it is the latter, would you please detail White's career?

« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 01:02:05 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #209 on: March 19, 2010, 11:19:01 AM »
Was that so-called new course White designed on Long Island in 1914 on property owned by Harry Hollins et al (apparently Meadow Farm) ever built? I doubt it and it may have had to do with the fact Hollins had a massive financial reversal at that time.

Phil_the_Author

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #210 on: March 19, 2010, 05:15:26 PM »
Tom,

You asked, "Are the two - grass expert and golf architect - mutually exclusive? Obviously not, there are numerous examples of greenkeeper/golf architects and grass expert/golf architects...not to mention construction man/golf architects, like Raynor. What point are you trying to make?"

I would think it is fairly obvious. First, that I believe your characterization of White as a well-established golf course architect in 1914-15 and recogniozed as more experienced than Raynor is incorrect. For exaample, in your post #123 you stated, "I think White was more active than what is generally known, starting with his last years at Ravisloe..."

Well what did he actually do during his "last years at Ravisloe?" He certainly didn't do any major design work and for proof of that we have HIS OWN WORDS. In the January 1913 article from the American Golfer (shown above in my reply #201) White, himself, after identifying himself as the GREENKEEPER at Ravisloe wrote, "The Ravisloe course was originally laid out in 1901 and, except for some changes made in 1902, the locations of the greens remain practically the same..."

Now I don't know how you measure time, but late that fall he would be gone from Ravisloe and employed at Shawnee. This would certainly qualify as being in "his last years at ravisloe" and yet he states that almost nothing of consequence had been done to the green complexes since 1902! So, exactly what was he more active in from a golf course design standpoint that he did in the next 8-9 months? And if he did anything major, how & why would he leave Ravisloe in October-November?

Secondly, he himself viewed himself as a GREENKEEPER, as did Tilly, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, those who hired him at North Shore!

From the North Shore Board meetings notes, "On November 12, 1914, the Club hired Robert White, at $1200.00 per year, to begin on December 1, 1914, with an option to terminate after 6 months with 30 days notice. His duties were: To take charge of the present golf course and to superintend the building of a new one, if undertaken, and to perform such other duties as the Board may direct..."

Notice that he was NOT hired to design the course! Seth Raynor was. Again, we go to the board minutes from the week BEFORE White was hired. "On November 5, 1914, the Club authorized the sum of $400.00 to hire Seth Raynor in an advisory capacity for possible improvement of the existing course on the property."

After this, once again as found in the board minutes, "On January 26, 1915, the Club approved plans by Raynor for a new golf course with $37,500.00 to be expended under supervision of the Greens Committee, subject to the approval of the President. Raynor was to be paid a fee of $1800.00 for carrying out this work." Plans by RAYNOR. No mention of White or a collaboration, but pretty definitive that it was his plans and design they approved and now agreed to pay him an additional $1,800 for!

Finally, and once again from the board minutes, "On March 12, 1916, at the Club’s Annual Meeting, the President, Henry Calman, noted that the links were now complete with the exception of some bunkers and traps and that the course should be opening by Decoration Day. He said the results are the product of the deep thought of Robert White, our greens expert, Seth Raynor, the leading golf architect in the United States and Charles B. Macdonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction and the well considered work of our Greens Committee."

Notice how differently Raynor and White were viewed. Raynor, the LEADING GOLF ARCHITECT in the U.S., with White being OUR GREENS EXPERT.

Raynor deigned the course. White worked with him in the construction of it and White especially and specifically worked on the turf of the putting surfaces, which is what he was hired to do, possibly even at the recommendation of Raynor (pure speculation).

Yes, White would go on to become a full-fledged architect in his own right, but he obviously wasn't sure of the directions that he was going and what he should be doing in 1914-15. Otherwise he would have been actively advertising himself as an architect and not taking full-time work on as a professional and greenkeeper.

You've asked several times for people to "detail White's career" especially during this time period. I think I laid out pretty well exactly what he was doing during the time period prior to his coming to North Shore. I did make one mistake though, and that is when I stated in answer to your question as to when exactly he left Shawnee that I mentioned late in the fall of 1915. This was incorrect and nothing more than a typo as he left Shawnee sometime in the late fall of 1914. As I stated, I will get you the exact date next month (if Shawnee has it in their files).

What is interesting and the reason i bring it up is your statement, "Phil, From what I've read its unclear if White was hired as greenkeeper at Shawnee or simply hired to redesign the golf course. [He wasn't, see my earlier comments on this] A few months later he was laying out a new course on Long Island, before eventually being hired by North Shore."

This statement is not quite accurate. The article from Golf magazine that you posted announcing this work was the December 1914 issue. It stated that White had been "working on plans for several weeks" at that time. That means that he had begun his design work sometime in early to mid-Novemebr. As he was hired by the club on Novemebr 14, 1914, and expected to begin work on Decemebr 1st, it would appear that he did this work at the same time as he began work at North Shore.

Now North Shore must have been aware of this design work that he was doing. so I ask you, why did they hire Raynor and specifically as the architect for the new course and specifically state such and NOT state anything even remotely hinting at White as their designing architect?

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #211 on: March 19, 2010, 11:53:05 PM »
Breaking news....

John Paul Newport of the WSJ writes an article on North Shore: "Lost in History: A Golf Whodunit."



http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704207504575129910042526320.html
« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 12:06:44 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

George_Bahto

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #212 on: March 20, 2010, 09:40:02 AM »
i think it will be next week - he got sidetracked and pushed back after Woods announced he was going to play Augusta
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #213 on: March 20, 2010, 09:45:56 AM »
up date ...... checked my e mail - got a note from John Paul and he said it was today WSJ
« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 09:59:48 AM by George_Bahto »
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Mike Cirba

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #214 on: March 20, 2010, 10:10:57 AM »
Awesome article.

Great job, guys!!! 

Chip Gaskins

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #215 on: March 20, 2010, 10:15:43 AM »
wow, you guys are famous now :-)

now lets get on to San Francisco Golf Club!

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #216 on: March 20, 2010, 10:26:51 AM »
Tom,

You asked, "Are the two - grass expert and golf architect - mutually exclusive? Obviously not, there are numerous examples of greenkeeper/golf architects and grass expert/golf architects...not to mention construction man/golf architects, like Raynor. What point are you trying to make?"

I would think it is fairly obvious. First, that I believe your characterization of White as a well-established golf course architect in 1914-15 and recogniozed as more experienced than Raynor is incorrect. For exaample, in your post #123 you stated, "I think White was more active than what is generally known, starting with his last years at Ravisloe..."

Where did I write White was a well-established golf architect?

Well what did he actually do during his "last years at Ravisloe?" He certainly didn't do any major design work and for proof of that we have HIS OWN WORDS. In the January 1913 article from the American Golfer (shown above in my reply #201) White, himself, after identifying himself as the GREENKEEPER at Ravisloe wrote, "The Ravisloe course was originally laid out in 1901 and, except for some changes made in 1902, the locations of the greens remain practically the same..."

Are you familiar with White's career?

Now I don't know how you measure time, but late that fall he would be gone from Ravisloe and employed at Shawnee. This would certainly qualify as being in "his last years at ravisloe" and yet he states that almost nothing of consequence had been done to the green complexes since 1902! So, exactly what was he more active in from a golf course design standpoint that he did in the next 8-9 months? And if he did anything major, how & why would he leave Ravisloe in October-November?

Secondly, he himself viewed himself as a GREENKEEPER, as did Tilly, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, those who hired him at North Shore!

Are you under the impression greenkeeper and golf architect are mutually exclusive? In those days wasn't it pretty common for pro/greekeepers to also dabble in golf course design? In 1916 White became the first president of the newly formed PGA of America, other PGA officers and committeemen were Herbert Strong, Jack Mackie, Gil Nichols, Wilfred Reid, Jack Croke and George Sargent. What did these men all have in common?

From the North Shore Board meetings notes, "On November 12, 1914, the Club hired Robert White, at $1200.00 per year, to begin on December 1, 1914, with an option to terminate after 6 months with 30 days notice. His duties were: To take charge of the present golf course and to superintend the building of a new one, if undertaken, and to perform such other duties as the Board may direct..."

Notice that he was NOT hired to design the course! Seth Raynor was. Again, we go to the board minutes from the week BEFORE White was hired. "On November 5, 1914, the Club authorized the sum of $400.00 to hire Seth Raynor in an advisory capacity for possible improvement of the existing course on the property."

After this, once again as found in the board minutes, "On January 26, 1915, the Club approved plans by Raynor for a new golf course with $37,500.00 to be expended under supervision of the Greens Committee, subject to the approval of the President. Raynor was to be paid a fee of $1800.00 for carrying out this work." Plans by RAYNOR. No mention of White or a collaboration, but pretty definitive that it was his plans and design they approved and now agreed to pay him an additional $1,800 for!

Finally, and once again from the board minutes, "On March 12, 1916, at the Club’s Annual Meeting, the President, Henry Calman, noted that the links were now complete with the exception of some bunkers and traps and that the course should be opening by Decoration Day. He said the results are the product of the deep thought of Robert White, our greens expert, Seth Raynor, the leading golf architect in the United States and Charles B. Macdonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction and the well considered work of our Greens Committee."

Are you disregarding this excerpt from Steve's timeline? "On March 13, 1915, at the Club’s Annual meeting, it was reported that the original course was under 5000 yards and that Raynor was hired, with the active and intelligent cooperation of White, and have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagram in the office of the Harmonie Club. This course will measure about 6400 yards, will take 15 acres of woodland and take full advantage of the vantages offered by the rolling ground, which we own."

Notice how differently Raynor and White were viewed. Raynor, the LEADING GOLF ARCHITECT in the U.S., with White being OUR GREENS EXPERT.

I'll ask you since no one else seems to be able to answer my question. What golf courses had Raynor designed by January, 1915?

Raynor deigned the course. White worked with him in the construction of it and White especially and specifically worked on the turf of the putting surfaces, which is what he was hired to do, possibly even at the recommendation of Raynor (pure speculation).

Are you trying to discover the truth or you trying to prove your theory, because if you were really trying to discover what happened I would think you'd approach this subject with a more open mind. You appear hell bent on proving White was nothing more than a lowly greenkeeper while ignoring the entirety of his career. You also appear to be ignoring Raynor's career - in 1915 wasn't his experience and expertise in construction? This thread is illustrative on how your mind works.

Yes, White would go on to become a full-fledged architect in his own right, but he obviously wasn't sure of the directions that he was going and what he should be doing in 1914-15. Otherwise he would have been actively advertising himself as an architect and not taking full-time work on as a professional and greenkeeper.

Could the same be said for Raynor?

You've asked several times for people to "detail White's career" especially during this time period. I think I laid out pretty well exactly what he was doing during the time period prior to his coming to North Shore. I did make one mistake though, and that is when I stated in answer to your question as to when exactly he left Shawnee that I mentioned late in the fall of 1915. This was incorrect and nothing more than a typo as he left Shawnee sometime in the late fall of 1914. As I stated, I will get you the exact date next month (if Shawnee has it in their files).

I don't recall you detailing his career at all - where he worked and what he did prior to NS. The only two jobs you mentioned were Ravisloe and Shawnee. And you have already admitted you have no idea how long he worked at either position.  

What is interesting and the reason i bring it up is your statement, "Phil, From what I've read its unclear if White was hired as greenkeeper at Shawnee or simply hired to redesign the golf course. [He wasn't, see my earlier comments on this] A few months later he was laying out a new course on Long Island, before eventually being hired by North Shore."

This statement is not quite accurate. The article from Golf magazine that you posted announcing this work was the December 1914 issue. It stated that White had been "working on plans for several weeks" at that time. That means that he had begun his design work sometime in early to mid-Novemebr. As he was hired by the club on Novemebr 14, 1914, and expected to begin work on Decemebr 1st, it would appear that he did this work at the same time as he began work at North Shore.

Now North Shore must have been aware of this design work that he was doing. so I ask you, why did they hire Raynor and specifically as the architect for the new course and specifically state such and NOT state anything even remotely hinting at White as their designing architect?

That is not exactly true. The quote above (that you ignored) said Raynor laid out the course with the active cooperation of White, and their plan was hanging on the wall. By the way construction began February 1915.

The club hired both men around the same time, and I think they were wise to do so. White had recently been involved with a highly publicized redesign (with Aleck Bauer & William Watson) and Raynor had experience building two of the highest profile designs (for CBM) in America. It is quite possible the club was under the impression hiring Raynor also meant you were hiring CBM. Obviously being an amateur and not accepting a fee meant he could not be hired in the traditional sense. We do know CBM was involved in some way.  

« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 11:18:39 AM by Tom MacWood »

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #217 on: March 20, 2010, 11:08:04 AM »
Tom MacWood

Please change your green underliners to yellow so that those of us who are color blind can read what you wrote. Thanks.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #218 on: March 20, 2010, 11:12:01 AM »
Steve:

On the other hand, perhaps it's more appropriate that we can't read what he wrote.   

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #219 on: March 20, 2010, 11:15:14 AM »
TEP

My guess is that it's the same old ,same old.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #220 on: March 20, 2010, 11:19:33 AM »
Sorry about that...that was very hard to read. I'm still celebrating St. Patty's Day.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #221 on: March 21, 2010, 07:23:11 AM »
And, if you haven't seen it...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704207504575129910042526320.html?KEYWORDS=john+paul+newport

And once again, the masked marvels of GCA save the day!
Maybe for 2022
~Eden Valley
~Hillview
~Pinehurst (NY)
~Kis 'N Greens
~Pine Meadows
~18 Mile Creek
~Greenwood
~Shawnee
~Leroy
~

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #222 on: March 21, 2010, 09:14:15 AM »
I have reread all of the news clippings that were supplied for this dialogue and none of them really explicitly states that White laid out or designed North Shore.

So is this a case where the historical records of a club have proven to be more reliable than the method of interpreting what is implicit in news clippings as being explicit?


TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #223 on: March 21, 2010, 10:28:48 AM »
"And once again, the masked marvels of GCA save the day."


RonaldM:

Do you think John Paul Newport should write a follow-up article on the architectural history of North Shore GC to amend his first article and state that actually "the JURY is still out" on North Shore because Tom MacWood, the self-proclaimed expert architectural researcher/historian, thinks Robert White designed the course even though the club's records from 1914-15 specifically state he was hired as only the greenskeeper/construction foreman and that Seth Raynor was hired to design the golf course?   ;)

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #224 on: March 21, 2010, 11:26:49 AM »
Bradley,
There are good arguments for either side that bolsters their respective opinions, but there's really no way to ignore what's found in reply #177.

Although I believe that the architect of record should be Seth Raynor, it seems entirely possible that Robert White played a very substantial role in the process while CBM took a more limited, but important, part. Some people would rather 'shoot the messenger' than keep after the truth.

I have yet to see a preponderance of evidence that says differently, and such evidence may never be found.

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

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