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Ben Stephens

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Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2009, 07:55:39 AM »
Thank god they did not get Rees or Fazio to do No.2 - Ben Crenshaw is one of the greatest putters ever and his understanding of greens/short game areas will be hugely benefical to No.2. I agree and I hope they bring back some of those sandy waste areas to make the course look more natural.


Ben,

If the "mission statement" is the same, do you think it makes a substantive difference in terms of which "hired gun" will tackle the project ?

My guess is that the bunkers will be moved in.

If that's the case, will you still deify C&C's work ?

Lastly, I don't care if Crenshaw holed every putt he looked at, why on earth would you touch the greens at # 2 ?



Pat – here are my replies to your question – Cheers Ben

If the "mission statement" is the same, do you think it makes a substantive difference in terms of which "hired gun" will tackle the project ?

Yes and No, its all about picking the best person for the job at this particular time, in an ideal world I would have picked Ross. I am just glad they did not use Rees + Fazio as they have become one dimensional in their style over the years. It’s about time the USGA gave someone else like C+C, Tom Doak, Gil Hanse, Michael Hurdzan and Kyle Phillips a go. So therefore it’s good to see the USGA flexing their arms and appreciating the contrasting styles of each designer. So currently for No.2 C+C seem to be the best choice. Id be interested what they come up with whether its good or bad in mine or your opinions.


My guess is that the bunkers will be moved in.

It sounds likely – but Ross’ principles of how it should be play should remain. Golf has changed so much since Ross was alive. There are more accurate shots and longer drives. At No.2 the main defence are the greens so that should remain unchanged – it needs to be updated from tee to green to reflect today’s game and retain the original challenge put forward by Ross.


If that's the case, will you still deify C&C's work ?

I had to look up at ‘deify’ in the Dictionary!
1.   to make a god of; exalt to the rank of a deity; personify as a deity: to deify a beloved king.
2.   to adore or regard as a deity: to deify wealth.

I don’t think they are ‘god’s gift’ to GCA – I appreciate their work even though there are things about their courses that I like and dislike. Nobody’s perfect !! There is not a ‘perfect’ golf course in the world – each one has a flaw that goes for buildings and other things as well!


Lastly, I don't care if Crenshaw holed every putt he looked at, why on earth would you touch the greens at # 2 ?

Thats my point about Crenshaw - he is more likely not to touch the hallowed greens of No.2 he is more likely to respect Ross 's work compared with Rees or Fazio also he is one of those Yanks that play the bump and run game so well so he would have greater understanding of how the pros could approach No.2’s greens. He would never do to No.2 to what Ernie Els has done to Colt’s greens at Wentworth.

I admit I have never played No. 2 but I have been glued to the TV whenever an US Open or Amateur has been there.  I have built greens based on No.2 to what I have seen on TV – I know they are not the Real McCoy.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 07:59:38 AM by Ben Stephens »

Jimmy Muratt

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Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2009, 10:03:53 AM »
Pat,

It is my hope that C&C are not doing this work solely to prepare the course for future major championships.  Unfortunately with the infatuation of defending par, it's going to be hard to escape the mindset of 25 yard fairways and 7400+ yard courses.  What bothers me with the current set-up of #2 is that much of the strategy has been taken out of the golf course.  #2 is a course where proper angles into greens are of the utmost importance if you hope to score well.  When you have narrow fairways bordered by thick rough, your strategy off the tee is dictated to you. 

As Craig stated earlier, there are fairway bunkers that are 15 yards into the rough.  That is just ridiculous.  Properly placed fairway bunkers should provide a sort of risk/reward opportunity.  If you challenge the bunker a execute a good shot, you should be rewarded with a better angle or shorter distance into the green. 

Incorporating more native areas would provide much more interesting recovery options as well as cut down on maintenance costs.  I hope the goal of this work is to maximize the wonderful layout that already exists.  It's there, it just needs to be dusted off.  The USGA is going to do what they do to toughen a golf course for it's tournaments, the golf course just doesn't need to stay like that for normal play.

Dunlop White has some excellent pictures on his website on the evolution of #2:
http://www.dunlopwhite.com/www.dunlopwhite.com/Bunker_Evolution_Report.html

And, some comparison pics:
http://www.dunlopwhite.com/www.dunlopwhite.com/Photographic_Comparisons.html

Adam Clayman

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Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2009, 10:14:47 AM »
Why are the greens so deified at The Deuce?

Isn't Pete Dye's observation that the greens are not anywhere near similar to what Ross designed, tweak and loved over the many years he spent on site?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2009, 10:29:45 AM »
Adam,

This is the best info I have seen on the evolution of the greens, specifically look at the section on Green Evolution 1936-2009:

http://www.dunlopwhite.com/www.dunlopwhite.com/Green_Evolution_Report.html


Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2009, 10:32:27 AM »
Jimmy,

the fact that they hired C &C and not one of the typical "open doctors" is a hopeful sign....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

John Shimp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2009, 11:51:06 AM »
While you don't need C&C (or any other architect) to improve playing conditions, I would hope that their prospective work could be the catalyst to return the course to more appropriate firm and fast playing conditions.  I played there in July and balls were virtually plugging in the fairways. Pitch and run shots didn't work around the greens because the grass was too lush and not mowed tightly enough, balls backed up on greens with mid-irons, etc.  I liked playing there more before it became a big tournament venue. 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2009, 06:30:11 PM »
Jimmy,

the fact that they hired C &C and not one of the typical "open doctors" is a hopeful sign....

How so ?

"Open Doctors" come and go.

Is C&C just the latest practitioner to hold that title ?

If there's a "Mission Statement", and I suspect there is, I doubt C&C will be given editorial license and/or creative freedom.


Jud_T

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Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2009, 06:59:20 PM »
Patrick,

If you can't differentiate between Reese Jones and C & C then what the heck have you been talking about for the past 21184 posts?.  I seriously doubt that C & C would have accepted the gig if all that was involved was a traditional open "toughening up" exercise...Maybe the boys at Pinehurst and the USGA have actually learned something along the way about GCA and other ways of challenging ALL levels of players including the world's best.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 07:08:18 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2009, 07:25:43 PM »
Patrick,

If you can't differentiate between Reese Jones and C & C then what the heck have you been talking about for the past 21184 posts?.  

If Rees Jones and C&C are given the same marching orders, there won't be much difference in the product they produce, from the players perspecitve.

Do you think either would change the architecture and flavor of Pinehurst # 2 ?
If so, in what way ?


I seriously doubt that C & C would have accepted the gig if all that was involved was a traditional open "toughening up" exercise...


Oh really ?
What makes you say that ?
Do you think that new course development is at an all time high or an all time low ?
If it's at the low end of the spectrum, do you believe that firms will accept restoration/renovation/remodeling jobs, just to meet payroll ?

Do you think that C&C are being given free reign, creative freedom to design/redesign anything they choose, or, do you think the owners have a specific mission statement that's in harmony with hosting a U.S. Open, like narrowing the fairways and bringing in the bunkers to match ?

If that's done, does it matter if you do it or C&C does it in terms of dramatically altering the architectural integrity of the golf course ?


Maybe the boys at Pinehurst and the USGA have actually learned something along the way about GCA and other ways of challenging ALL levels of players including the world's best.

If you really believe that Ran should revoke your access to this site on the basis of temporary or permanent architectural insanity.

Have you ever played Pinehurst before it hosted the U.S. Open ?

Were the fairways wide or narrow ?

Do you think that narrowing the fairways and bringing in the bunkers to match, ala Oakmont and Baltusrol will fairly challenge ALL LEVELS of players at Pinehurst # 2 ?


Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2009, 07:39:49 PM »
if you recall, the last time the open was held at #2, it wasn't all about U.S. open rough:

http://espn.go.com/golfonline/usopen99/news/1999/990620/00001467.html

and yes, projects are down even for the likes of C&C but I seriously doubt things have gotten so difficult that they've already reached the point of compromising their Coore beliefs   8)...and if they have sunk that low then I've got a great back-yard putting green project for them.....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2009, 07:43:34 PM »
Its interesting that they picked C and C... Closely mown chipping areas are a speciality of Rees Jones!!!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2009, 07:42:03 AM »
Well there is hope if http://www.geoffshackelford.com/  Wednesday report on the matter is true.  I like the idea of trying to create a championship course which doesn't need meddling when a championship comes around.  It will be interesting to see the compromise of fairway width in relation to the new proposed sandy areas.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, Hinckley, Robin Hood, Sandiway & Ladybank

TEPaul

Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2009, 08:17:46 AM »
Wow, that would be or is interesting if true. It sort of surprises me though because in my experience far more than any other architects out there it seems their recent history of refusals indicates that C&C just don't like stepping onto this kind of highly visible firing line!

But if they do it I propose they be labeled not "Open Doctors" but more like "Open Mediums" (to Ross) and whatever they do to the course in preparation for the US Open be advertized as an "Open Architectural Seance."  ;)
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 08:21:41 AM by TEPaul »

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2009, 08:19:31 AM »
Does anyone know when this will take place?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Ian Andrew

Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2009, 08:34:55 AM »
This is the best info I have seen on the evolution of the greens, specifically look at the section on Green Evolution 1936-2009:
http://www.dunlopwhite.com/www.dunlopwhite.com/Green_Evolution_Report.html

What a resource Dunlop has put together.

I believe Evolution has a place in historical work.
Some features definately improve with time.

I think this will be fun to watch "from a distance" because the work will come with some hard decisions.
This work is far from cut and dry.

Ian

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2009, 11:22:39 AM »
Wow. Thanks for the link to Dunlop's web site, Ian. I agree; the info. he's posted there re the evolution of Pinehurst #2 is excellent.

Nice work, Dunlop. Thanks for sharing this info.
jeffmingay.com

Chris Buie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2009, 01:41:25 PM »
This map is of #2 in 1922.  It evolved to the routing it is today by 1936 - that is when the PGA was held there.  Anyway, the map is something C & C would want to consult, I think.  Where the hole numbers have changed (for instance today's 10th hole used to be the 7th hole) I put a superimposed number to show the change.  If you have any questions feel free to ask me. 

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2009, 03:21:57 PM »
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2009, 11:56:36 AM »
This is the best info I have seen on the evolution of the greens, specifically look at the section on Green Evolution 1936-2009:
http://www.dunlopwhite.com/www.dunlopwhite.com/Green_Evolution_Report.html

What a resource Dunlop has put together.

I believe Evolution has a place in historical work.
Some features definately improve with time.

I think this will be fun to watch "from a distance" because the work will come with some hard decisions.
This work is far from cut and dry.
Ian

Dunlop does great work for golf.  It's going to be interesting to see how C & C will deal with the "greens issue."

David Schofield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2009, 11:49:55 PM »
From the Member's newsletter:
Quote
We wanted you to be aware that some early stories are being released to the media concerning possible upgrades to Pinehurst No. 2. In early fall, we began conversations with the Ben Crenshaw and Bill Coore team to discuss their design philosophy, and to explore the possibility of returning some historic Ross features to the course. We've done so from long-term, stewardship perspective. We have yet to sign any contracts or review any early plans, and no timetable has been set. If the plan moves forward, it will be at least a year, maybe longer, before work actually begins (ed-emphasis added). We can assure you that No. 2 will remain open throughout next year and during our busiest golf seasons.



Jim Colton

Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2010, 02:14:47 PM »
There's a new video with C&C talking about the Pinehurst project on the resort's Facebook page.

http://www.facebook.com/PinehurstResort

Press Release: http://www.pinehurst.com/press/pinehurst-enlists-coore-and-crenshaw-to-lead-project-that-will-return-character-to-no-2

Steve Kline

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Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2010, 08:10:52 AM »
My dad has been a member for about 20 years. He has played the course well over a thousand times and I have played it somewhere between 500 and 1,000 times. I sent him the link to the above video and the following are his comments:

"They are in full swing already.  They’ve started on holes 11 and 12. They must have had forty of fifty people out there yesterday.  The fairways have been widened back out to where they used to be when we first joined…or even wider.  And about half of the remaining rough is being removed and presumably be replaced with sandy areas with wire grass. It’s going to be significantly different particularly visually."

I think this is fantastic news. My understanding is the greens will be virtually untouched. Now, the next big step will be maintaining the course with ideal F&F maintenance meld. This course has certainly not had that since the Opens started coming. It's always way to wet and soft, which means the greens lose much of their impact on the strategy.

Matt_Ward

Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2010, 08:49:33 AM »
For some strange reason so many attempts in making #2 a better course have often flied in the face in what made it so compelling to start with.

The fairway widths are central to that element -- ditto the visual "look" that makes playing in the region so fascinating and alluring./

#2 gets little love -- save for the diehards who truly understand what the layout is about. A singular play doesn't do the place justice.

C&C have done much prior with their original designs -- it will be quite interesting to see how they progress because with two US Opens being contested in back-to-back weeks it will cerainly be a golden opportunity to showcase what makes being there and playing there so special.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2010, 10:00:15 PM »
In the last minute of the interview posted on the Pinehurst Facebook page, Crenshaw makes an interesting point about restoring approach angles and recovery shots. If approaching from the wrong side of the fairway made it difficult to hold onto the greens @ #2, but it was never anything a pro with a square grooved 60 degree lob wedge couldn't deal with on the next shota. Hopefully by 2014 there would be enough data on the impact on new groove limits on scores in US Opens to allow the USGA to leave fairway widths at the C&C restored margins.

Depending on the preparation of the greens, you'd have to assume these shots would be a little harder to pull off even from the short grass, or–if they bring the wire grass/sandy areas closer to the putting surface–really challenging.

If the greens themselves are off limits, is it possible C&C would re-contour some of the runoff areas that are out of character or were inartfully scooped out in the 60s? The implication of the Dunlop White material is that work was never something Ross would have done or intended as response to the build up of the greens from top-dressing...

Is Pinehurst the only course in the USGA rota at the moment where you could host a F&F Open?
Next!

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Coore & Crenshaw to renovate Pinehurst #2?
« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2010, 11:16:53 PM »
In the last minute of the interview posted on the Pinehurst Facebook page, Crenshaw makes an interesting point about restoring approach angles and recovery shots. If approaching from the wrong side of the fairway made it difficult to hold onto the greens @ #2, but it was never anything a pro with a square grooved 60 degree lob wedge couldn't deal with on the next shota. Hopefully by 2014 there would be enough data on the impact on new groove limits on scores in US Opens to allow the USGA to leave fairway widths at the C&C restored margins.

Depending on the preparation of the greens, you'd have to assume these shots would be a little harder to pull off even from the short grass, or–if they bring the wire grass/sandy areas closer to the putting surface–really challenging.

If the greens themselves are off limits, is it possible C&C would re-contour some of the runoff areas that are out of character or were inartfully scooped out in the 60s? The implication of the Dunlop White material is that work was never something Ross would have done or intended as response to the build up of the greens from top-dressing...

Is Pinehurst the only course in the USGA rota at the moment where you could host a F&F Open?

I imagine they chose Chambers Bay with the intention of F&F. And Shinnecock, assuming that's still in the queue.

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