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Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hacienda GC
« on: December 09, 2008, 08:20:36 PM »
I'm looking back on more of the threads from this year and I've been missing out on all kinds of stuff  ::)

Case in point...

David Stamm had a great "guess where and the arch, part 2" thread and he mentions TN knows the skinny on Hacienda GC and it being a Willie Watson build and not a Max Behr job.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33215.0.html


TN,

Now that you're back from your vacation/sabbatical, what's the skinny on this?  Need the info.
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hacienda GC
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2008, 09:47:03 AM »
Bump   ::)
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Tom Naccarato

Re: Hacienda GC
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2008, 12:19:49 PM »
Patrick,
Sorry I didn't see this originally.

Being a "friend" of Hacienda, there always seemed to be some bones to the place that never failed to entertain. The first time I had ever saw the place was when I was 15 years old, during a drivers training exercise, which one of my football coaches was the Drivers Ed teacher, he took us up East Road, drove us by the old venerable club and said, "you guys wouldn't believe the wait list that exists to get into that place..." At the time I wasn't even a golfer. But within a short 7 years, I would get to know Hacienda and was just enamored with the place. Its a beautiful setting for an LA-area country club, featuring views that stretch to Palos Verdes, LAX and beyond. People for many years--the non-architectural types--have called it Riviera with a view. While the architecture is anything close to Riviera--well sort of--the course had devolved from one bad green committee to another; making and not making decisions in the best interests of the club and the course.

Hacienda's history is an interesting one, because it represents Alfonso Bell's first entry into the development market. Bell was somewhat of a tennis star from the early 1900's; and he found this stretch of land and saw its possibilities, literally developing the club on his own, going out and getting the membership to help develop it. This experience would no doubt help him on his next development project--even more grandiose and successful; a place called Bel Air Estates, commonly known today as, "Bel Air"

Hacienda started out as a 9-hole course that would eventually--as membership would allow it--develop into a full 18-holes. The rudimentary 9 holes, much which exists today at the club's more gentle downhill canyon holes, where the clubhouse once sat right of today's 17th fairway, and what is now a practice green. From what I have found, it would seem that Willie Watson originally laid out this nine holes, but the membership took off fast and soon Watson, along with Charles Mayo, who oversaw construction--were laying out the more difficult to access, holes that went into various parts of the canyon, more specifically the portions North of East Road at both ends of the course. More then likely, with Watson 'railing' off to Michigan during the spring and summer months, Mayo built the course but ran into difficulties and with Watson not there, he sought the help of others--more specifically "Uncle" Ed Tufts, the father of Golf in Southern California, as well as a famous guest known for his interests in the subject of Golf Architecture and the designer of the La Cumbre and Ojai courses, Captain George C. Thomas Jr. How much and what exact holes they contributed to is only a guess, but there is an article showing the two were there helping out. My guess would be very speculative at best. But the course does have a tremendous character to it.

Hacienda would live and then barely survive, eventually being saved on the courthouse steps from bankruptcy after the crash of 1929. The club chugged along while the Depression came and went, certain sand hazards and bunkers were left for dead. It survived the lack of playing time from a World War. Eventually in the 1960's, because of irrigation and over-growth of trees, the course became a slog of sorts; creek beds disappeared and with the alteration of the landscape it would take days for the course to drain after a most simple rain. Through club contacts, a civil engineer from Seattle named Don Hogan was contacted and he made changes to the areas of the course that would allow water to move quickly and efficiently. The earth movers came and went, and soon, holes 10, between 11 & 13 and holes 15 & 17 would take on a new character with more gentler, kinder fairways. From the Great Depression and on this is where the course started to lose much of its original character. (from pictures and accounts)

The trees grew and grew and grew and grew.

During that time, other architects were brought in and made changes to the course. Cornish & Whitten show RTJ there. (If they more specifically Bobby) were, as Daniel Wexler would say, then it was nothing more then quickly driving past the property. But then in the mid-1980's, the club contacted Ted Robinson who then made changes to to the lowest portion of canyon holes. He essentially raised each green--like most landscape architects would do, and the path of original character was further damaged or destroyed. (depending on your opinion) This would be at holes (from the east canyon to west) #15, #16, #8  and #6.

Around 1999, being a friend of the club, I took it upon myself to write a letter discussing the history of the course and the need to restore it to the standards it once knew. The letter had must of had some merit because soon, I found myself in an ad hoc green committee meeting and they asked me to research the history of the course some more. The club at the time was losing members, ironic, since I had come to know the club as having a long waiting list to get in, and with much of the younger membership wanting a new clubhouse and a new golf course and the older members--not wanting assessment, not wanting anything to change at all. The club became divided.

Despite my efforts for a "sympathetic" full blown restoration, and despite some of the recommendations I gave to the club, John Harbottle--was brought in and given the job. I spent a day or two with John going around the course describing what I knew of it and he explained that restoration was probably the last thing on the club's mind, but he knew he had to make it look "Bell-like." Whereas I exclaimed to him that it had to be more "Behr-like" given the information that Cornish & Whitten had provided in The Golf Course and Architects of Golf. We agreed that the original creeks needed to be restored and that was about all I could do to help restore the course. You see, up until that time it was all speculative at best who designed Hacienda. Nobody including myself knew, and I looked in a lot of places trying to find this holy grail of sorts.

Then one day, after being gifted with access to the LA Times archives, I found the following article:


More and more articles came up and soon this one:


I then informed my sources at the club--as fast as I could--and told them of my find, I was called up to the club with the new and present GM, club historian and both the head and assistant professionals and showed them the articles. Two days later, John Harbottle called me and we both laughed at how wrong we were and his work went on as planned.

What John Harbottle did at Hacienda was nothing short of a miracle in terms of getting them to remove trees. This was the main sticking point with the older members, and more specifically my inside friend who is no longer at the club. (well sort of!) It all looks so much better then it did, the course itself looks classic and it plays tough. Unfortunately it isn't a restoration and that was never going to happen, which for me is kind of a shame. Hacienda for me is one of those its way better then it was, but not as good as it could have been

Still, Hacienda is a really cool place to golf at, especially late at night watching the sun go down into the Pacific.


Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hacienda GC
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2008, 12:23:22 PM »
That's ok.  You were obviously in la la land with dreams of NGLA  ;D

Very cool to know this story.  Thanks for sharing.



Sorry I didn't see this originally.

“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hacienda GC
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2013, 10:30:15 PM »



Par-4 1st:








Par-4 2nd, with TWO blind shots!






Awkward approach to short par-4 3rd:




Par-3 4th:




Phenomenal par-4 5th with thrilling diagonal tee shot and approach over rolling terrain to a drop-down green:






Green site on the long par-3 6th:




A tilted fairway at the par-4 7th:






A one-time split fairway at the 8th?




The terrain starts to get really interesting once the golfer reaches the bend of the par-5 10th:






Another cleverly sited par-3 green at the 12th:




The 13th from behind:




Rolling land at the straightaway par-4 14th:






Par-4 15th:






Par-3 16th is remarkably intimidating:




Approach to the par-4 18th:




David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hacienda GC
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2013, 12:01:44 AM »
Mark S. -

Thanks for the photo tour.

http://www.haciendagolfclub.com/

DT

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hacienda GC
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2013, 01:27:08 AM »
Mark, thanks.  The course appears to need a Tree Management plan....would you agree?
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Mark Kiely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hacienda GC
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2016, 12:42:34 PM »
I didn't catch Hacienda as green as Mark did above (they close for a few weeks of maintenance/overseeding in about 10 days), but I had the excellent fortune to play here yesterday. I loved every second of it. Here are a few current photos:



First tee:
IMG_20160914_065718025 by Mark, on Flickr


Taken from the dogleg on 10:
IMG_20160914_100724415 by Mark, on Flickr


Approach to the short par-4 15th:
IMG_20160914_111819825 by Mark, on Flickr


Close-up of the Par-3 16th:
IMG_20160914_113246376 by Mark, on Flickr


Full album of 52 photos here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/24952137@N00/albums/72157672772988681/with/29060307374/
My golf course photo albums on Flickr: https://goo.gl/dWPF9z

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hacienda GC
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2016, 04:17:08 PM »
I had a college prof who was a member there but despite getting an A in two of his classes I couldnt talk him into an invite. The course reminded me of Woodland Hills CC in Socal also.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Tommy Naccarato

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hacienda GC
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2016, 08:54:47 PM »
The course is nothing like Woodland Hills in any stretch of the imagination other then tree growth.

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