[Ryan Farrow]

Read up if you wish...

[Brad Tufts]

Good idea...definately going to find some of these when i get home from work

[Jerry Kluger]

Check out Aberdeen CC in Boynton Beach, FL - a Desmond course which is just plain stupid.

[Adam Clayman]

Jerry, This looks like the Louis XIII bottle hole. What's so wrong?

[Bob Harris]

They don't get any wackier than the original 7th at Stone Harbor, another DM course.

[ChipRoyce]

They don't get any wackier than the original 7th at Stone Harbor, another DM course.

This one has always baffled me.... where's the best miss? 30 yards right or left of the green but not too close to the end of one of the teeth?

[Jay Flemma]

He b uilt that tragic mess of a golf course I had to play in college too - Farmington Woods.

Hey!  I know!  Let's shape one par-5 like the letter S and another like the letter Z...and line BOTH sides of EVERY fairway with woods.

[Tom Naccarato]

Jay,
Not having to defend Desmond, because you could only wish you were a 1/8th of a man that he was--yes, the hole doesn't fit "our" descriptions of classic, or bonafide great architecture. But someone was willing to pay for it--in case every member who joined that club before many of the holes like "Clashing Rocks" got changed.

Honestly, I think many of you are missing the point--Desmond created this stuff out of entertainment. He wanted to be controversial, and certainly he was. He took a lot of flack for it and you know what? He still created some of these bizarre works and didn't care what a no-talent hack, who is trapped in some fantasy that he is a great golf writer--had to say about it.

(And I'm not just talking about you Jay.)

Desmond didn't care much for people that shot first and didn't know what they were shooting at--in this case writers who didn't have a clue at what they were writing about, higherarchy club members who spoke with a forked-tongue and two faces. These people had no problem ridiculing the art--and in this case--science of golf course design, yet knew nothing about it, or what went into it. The man designed many golf courses. Some of them great, many of them challenging but a few of them confusing.

And that was also his opinion of the Jones Boys, whom Desmond had no problem ever telling anyone, what he actually thought of them as artists and scientists as a whole; let alone their abilities at land-planning, which he considered was nothing less then the truest art of all when it came to course design.) (Hopefully Forrest will second this; Our honest opinion of this man is probably the only tie he and I have left other then being born at the same hospital a month apart)

(Note: I like Bobby. He was nothing less then great at our one meeting and I look forward to the next visit also. I would really enjoy a more lengthy conversation with the man, mostly because of his passion for the Sport--which he thinks is a Game! ) (Bobby, I hope your reading!)

In closing, one of the great joys Desmond got out of his life was that Clashing Rocks and the Mermaid hole created such talk; such interest. They stated using Clashing Rocks for one of those inspirational posters you see on a lot of office walls. I remember him getting great joy out of that--the fact that some of the sayings on those posters had to do with over-coming struggles of the human element and the devices which to over-come them. It was his depiction of those struggles in dirt that makes that poster. He was very proud of that.

For Desmond Muirhead, that is what GREAT golf architecture was all about. Some of you should learn that aspect of it. And as Stephen King wrote and Morgan Freeman said in the closing of the movie, Rita Haworth and Shawshank Redemption:

I hope I can make it across the border.
I hope to see my friend and shake his hand.
I hope the Pacific is as blue as it has been in my dreams.
         
I hope.

I thank Desmond for giving me the chance to learn; He was a brilliant, jovial man. As Brad Klein once described him, a Snake Charmer. You couldn't help but have a great feeling about him.

[Brian_Ewen]

Thanks Tommy .

You said it much better than I could .

This wacky/over-thetop/Ryan Farrow-like thread kinda pissed me off 

[Tom Naccarato]

Brian,
Thanks for the kind words.

Ryan isn't so much over-the-top as he is a great seeker of knowledge when it comes to the designing of golf courses. He's actually a great student of the sport and I'm proud to call him a friend.

The funny thing is that if Ryan had happened the chance to meet Desmond Muirhead, he would have enjoyed his take on things--like many of us who had the chance to meet him. Desmond would have snaked charmed Ryan in that upper-crust Brit accent--he just took you in.

The biggest crime is that people declared Desmond some sort of mad man. He hated that. It was just the opposite.

The Ron Whitten article on him in Golf Digest from around 1998, well he viewed the article that it painted him a mad man/mad genius hell bent on destroying the Sport of Golf. Yet, the funny thing is that he had the picture from that article mounted and framed in his office, right above Ella's desk. (his most trusted secretary--anyone that knew Ella can verify that she was an absolute jewel. She worshiped the ground he walked on and while doing it, he placed a trust in her, knowing that it was in better hands then he could have ever paid for.) the article was anything but that.

I myself, felt that the article depicted him accurately and was complementary. I told Desmond so. That led to a debating session that lasted well into the night--how much you could trust journalists--they'll let you down every time!

[Sean_A]

Tommy

You seem to have been good mates with Muirhead and I spose that gives you every right to defend him.  But from where I am sitting, folks are critical of Muirhead's work, not him.  This is an important difference. 

Ciao

[Tom Naccarato]

Arbs,
Your missing the point. I'm not defending him and have said so. I'm just explaining who he was and what he was about. He was often misunderstood.

Point in example: Somehow in one of the articles, someone described his work as if he was tripping on acid. Soon, there were golf clubs pulling work from him because they didn't want someone on acid working on their golf course. A classic case of shooting first and aiming later. I got to hear the complaints, and I listened because I knew it bothered him. Desmond was a bon vivant/lover of life. He saw art and history in everything. Do you know what that kind of a rumor could do to a person like that? All because a writer suggested it as such. It's like Monty Python and the Hold Grail:

Sir Bedevere: There are ways of telling whether she is a witch.
Peasant 1: Are there? Oh well, tell us.
Sir Bedevere: Tell me. What do you do with witches?
Peasant 1: Burn them.
Sir Bedevere: And what do you burn, apart from witches?
Peasant 1: More witches.
Peasant 2: Wood.
Sir Bedevere: Good. Now, why do witches burn?
Peasant 3: ...because they're made of... wood?
Sir Bedevere: Good. So how do you tell whether she is made of wood?
Peasant 1: Build a bridge out of her.
Sir Bedevere: But can you not also build bridges out of stone?
Peasant 1: Oh yeah.
Sir Bedevere: Does wood sink in water?
Peasant 1: No, no, it floats!... It floats! Throw her into the pond!
Sir Bedevere: No, no. What else floats in water?
Peasant 1: Bread.
Peasant 2: Apples.
Peasant 3: Very small rocks.
Peasant 1: Cider.
Peasant 2: Gravy.
Peasant 3: Cherries.
Peasant 1: Mud.
Peasant 2: Churches.
Peasant 3: Lead! Lead!
King Arthur: A Duck.
Sir Bedevere: ...Exactly. So, logically...
Peasant 1: If she weighed the same as a duck... she's made of wood.
Sir Bedevere: And therefore...
Peasant 2: ...A witch!

Honestly, from Jay's description of the course he played when he was in college; I don't doubt for a second that it was some sort of whacky golf hole--because in the latter part of Desmond's life that's what he got paid to design and build. He was a character. His clients wanted the architecture he created. When he died, he had no less then two courses on the drawing board, and three or four more courses being planned. I don't think there is an architect that would ever call that unsuccessful.

So, defense? I don't have to defend him. But I do ask this: How many of you have played his golf courses that didn't have all the symbolist crap on them? From a commercially successful architect as such, honestly, I don't think I've ever come across more interesting features from an architect that practiced his trade in the 60's and 70's. Well, maybe other then Pete Dye. Most of Desmond's features were things his built upon what he had seen on one solitary course that taught him a lot. It's called the Old Course of St. Andrews.

Jay was talking to Bobby in his article about Ribbon Tees and how they were his invention, well I sort of got a chuckle out of that because Desmond was building those kinds of tees long ago. Just in a different form. Sort of like Vanilla Ice selling a billion records off of a Queen lick and then claiming he didn't know it was their lick.

[Sean_A]

Arbs,
Your missing the point. I'm not defending him and have said so. I'm just explaining who he was and what he was about. He was often misunderstood.

Point in example: Somehow in one of the articles, someone described his work as if he was tripping on acid. Soon, there were golf clubs pulling work from him because they didn't want someone on acid working on their golf course. A classic case of shooting first and aiming later. I got to hear the complaints, and I listened because I knew it bothered him. Desmond was a bon vivant/lover of life. He saw art and history in everything. Do you know what that kind of a rumor could do to a person like that? All because a writer suggested it as such. It's like Monty Python and the Hold Grail:

Sir Bedevere: There are ways of telling whether she is a witch.
Peasant 1: Are there? Oh well, tell us.
Sir Bedevere: Tell me. What do you do with witches?
Peasant 1: Burn them.
Sir Bedevere: And what do you burn, apart from witches?
Peasant 1: More witches.
Peasant 2: Wood.
Sir Bedevere: Good. Now, why do witches burn?
Peasant 3: ...because they're made of... wood?
Sir Bedevere: Good. So how do you tell whether she is made of wood?
Peasant 1: Build a bridge out of her.
Sir Bedevere: But can you not also build bridges out of stone?
Peasant 1: Oh yeah.
Sir Bedevere: Does wood sink in water?
Peasant 1: No, no, it floats!... It floats! Throw her into the pond!
Sir Bedevere: No, no. What else floats in water?
Peasant 1: Bread.
Peasant 2: Apples.
Peasant 3: Very small rocks.
Peasant 1: Cider.
Peasant 2: Gravy.
Peasant 3: Cherries.
Peasant 1: Mud.
Peasant 2: Churches.
Peasant 3: Lead! Lead!
King Arthur: A Duck.
Sir Bedevere: ...Exactly. So, logically...
Peasant 1: If she weighed the same as a duck... she's made of wood.
Sir Bedevere: And therefore...
Peasant 2: ...A witch!

Honestly, from Jay's description of the course he played when he was in college; I don't doubt for a second that it was some sort of whacky golf hole--because in the latter part of Desmond's life that's what he got paid to design and build. He was a character. His clients wanted the architecture he created. When he died, he had no less then two courses on the drawing board, and three or four more courses being planned. I don't think there is an architect that would ever call that unsuccessful.

So, defense? I don't have to defend him. But I do ask this: How many of you have played his golf courses that didn't have all the symbolist crap on them? From a commercially successful architect as such, honestly, I don't think I've ever come across more interesting features from an architect that practiced his trade in the 60's and 70's. Well, maybe other then Pete Dye. Most of Desmond's features were things his built upon what he had seen on one solitary course that taught him a lot. It's called the Old Course of St. Andrews.

Jay was talking to Bobby in his article about Ribbon Tees and how they were his invention, well I sort of got a chuckle out of that because Desmond was building those kinds of tees long ago. Just in a different form. Sort of like Vanilla Ice selling a billion records off of a Queen lick and then claiming he didn't know it was their lick.

Come on Naccers, I got yer point, I just disagree if the example you gave is an extreme form of criticism.  To blame the writer who described DM's work as that of someone on acid for DM losing work is harsh and I would say unreasonable, but this seems to be what American culture is partly about these days - for heaven's find someone to blame.   I agree that using descriptions with the word acid in it may not be the best way to go about your business, but what is?  If a designer wants to step that far outside the norm of design he has to expect some wild descriptions of his work. 

I seem to recall some pretty wild things said about Tobacco Road. 

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

Most of Desmond's features were things his built upon what he had seen on one solitary course that taught him a lot. It's called the Old Course of St. Andrews.

From GAP http://www.gapgolf.org/clubs.asp?cmd=&cid=114

"English-born Muirhead, known in the 1950s as a landscape planner and designer of retirement villages (and never better than a high-handicap golfer), had made a quick study of the great courses of America and Britain and concluded that the field of golf architecture was overdue for the kind of fresh thinking he could bring to it. "Those courses have no mystique whatsoever," he once said. "I owe very little allegiance to St. Andrews.""

Based on my play of Stone Harbor, my opinion of Muirhead and Pete Dye are similar - they both build/built some unique and interesting features and holes. Unfortunately they did not have an internal monitor to stop themselves, so the golfer receives a pollution of architectural features and it dilutes the golf experience.

I have often heard people describe their favorite Pete Dye course as "not really a Pete Dye course".

Tommy,

At some point in time on your East Coast travels, you should go see Stone Harbor.

[Tom Naccarato]

Arbs,
About Tobacco road, not from me you didn't! In fact, many of us were invited to play there before the course opened, and up until their tragic clubhouse fire, which burned the place to the ground before it was even in operation. For what its worth, and I say this only seeing some of the Shore Course from the road--that I have admired Mike's work from afar.

Yes, Desmond wasn't above criticism to some degree, but certainly he deserves a bit more thorough examination of his entire body of work. (Heaven forbid, I'm starting to sound like Matt Ward! ) It's easy to post whacky pictures and call the Elephant Man, the Elephant Man. Especially when they can walk away from it clear of conscious. Me, well I can admit there have been times I've studied Ted Robinson and got all over him--in fact I'm disappointed in you that you didn't point this out! But the point is that I know the work. I've played some good Ted Robinson holes, like the 17th at Tijeras Creek. (a really cool golf hole) But I have also seen horrible things about his golf courses too--things that no architect should be free from criticisms on or about.

Desmond should be no different, I agree completely, but lets talk about the strategies of some of those whacky golf holes, which I can tell you is undeniably good in some cases. I could post some examples, but unfortunately I have to get ready for work and the promise of 8 hours pay for a 8 hours work. (in my case 10-12 hours work!)

[Sean_A]

Arbs,
About Tobacco road, not from me you didn't! In fact, many of us were invited to play there before the course opened, and up until their tragic clubhouse fire, which burned the place to the ground before it was even in operation. For what its worth, and I say this only seeing some of the Shore Course from the road--that I have admired Mike's work from afar.

Yes, Desmond wasn't above criticism to some degree, but certainly he deserves a bit more thorough examination of his entire body of work. (Heaven forbid, I'm starting to sound like Matt Ward! ) It's easy to post whacky pictures and call the Elephant Man, the Elephant Man. Especially when they can walk away from it clear of conscious. Me, well I can admit there have been times I've studied Ted Robinson and got all over him--in fact I'm disappointed in you that you didn't point this out! But the point is that I know the work. I've played some good Ted Robinson holes, like the 17th at Tijeras Creek. (a really cool golf hole) But I have also seen horrible things about his golf courses too--things that no architect should be free from criticisms on or about.

Desmond should be no different, I agree completely, but lets talk about the strategies of some of those whacky golf holes, which I can tell you is undeniably good in some cases. I could post some examples, but unfortunately I have to get ready for work and the promise of 8 hours pay for a 8 hours work. (in my case 10-12 hours work!)

Sorry Naccers, it wasn't my intention to imply that you said wild stuff about Tobacco Road.  I honestly don't remember who said what in the press as it didn't mean much to me at the time.

I am not doubting that even some of Muirhead's goofier holes have strategic merit.  I honestly don't know cause I never paid that much attention to the man's work.  However, I would say thats part of the problem, Muirhead wanted to be outside the box and there is often a price to pay for following through with that desire.  To be sure, since you believe DM had merit, I think a thread on some of his work would be interesting.  Have at it my man, the front page of the board is looking a bit stale.

Ciao

[Tom Naccarato]

Mike,
I completely disagree with that quote from Desmond and would have no problem telling him that if he were alive today. I don't doubt that he would have gotten a chuckle out of it if I did!

--If some of you could see the writing and underlining he did with red pen in some very expensive classic books, and most of it all about St. Andrews. I'll scan a copy of one of his highlights latter.
--I have no less then three topo maps of The Old Course that he left me, knowing how much I wanted them.
--Most of our conversations--when we agreed on architecture--were about one course and one course in general. It was a mutual admiration society for the greatest course of them all. So if Desmond did indeed say that, he wasn't being fully honest. But then again, this would prove my point about what he thought of writers, and how he knew how to use promotion just about better then anybody.
--I could go into features on many of his non-symbolist courses where he did in fact use Old Course features, and when I told him of seeing these things, he laughed and liked how perceptive I was to them--like the green on the original 10th hole at Quail Ranch is an almost exact detail of the 12th green on the Old Course. The 5th hole green was an exact copy of the 7th on the Eden Course; etc. Sadly both of these greens have been softened and butchered since.

Robert Duruntz might be able to add something to this.

[Adam Clayman]

As is witnessed every day, these days, in the treehouse, formulaic thinking needs to be confronted, assaulted and diffused.

It's bad enough that golfers who pick up their sticks 5 times a year can dictate economic models, but to have them opine (and heeded), with their limited understanding on GCA, is just too much. I'm sure the contempt the man had for everything modern (The Nicklaus era) set off his higher intellect and created designs that would rock their world.

[Tom Naccarato]

Adam,
Very true.

As far as intellect, Desmond was a Cambridge man, in fact if I remember right, from the same hall as H.S. Colt. (or was it MacKenzie? I can't remember) He would later continue his education--in forestry--at the University of Oregon in Eugene. (Go Fight Win) Ironically not far from modern golf's manna from heaven.


Arb's if time allows me, I will try to get to it. Right now I have to convince Southern California their future is in solar energies. So far, I'm doing a horrible job of it!

[Adam Clayman]

Ironically not far from modern golf's manna from heaven.

How far is Sandpines?

[Adam_Messix]

Tommy--

Did Desmond Muirhead ever mention his affinity for National Golf Links of America during his conversations with you?  He professed his love for NGLA to me during our one conversation 10 years ago, which I found eye opening.  But then again, he loved the Old Course and wrote an enjoyable book about it. 

[archie_struthers]

 

Tommy Nac ...so nice to hear from you! 

As to Stone Harbor and Muirhead , of which a case study can be made for a kind of wacky genius...something we might not be quite able to understand yet compelling...like an abstract art piece...at first glance it appears alien...even garish ...but if you look long enough it might just appeal to you!

That was Stone Harbor ...brilliant ...mesmerizing ..but  way too over the top to receive any kind of public approval ...and the lines of charm .. geometrical ...hard angles...is an affront to the senses of most purists ..


I'm interested in personal knowledge of Desmond....who I never met ..despite spending many hours watching them build Stone Harbor

,I'd imagine his  personality was larger than life .. just guessing , but I'm sure when he walked into  a room  he wouldn't go unnoticed ..  Just guessing on this one..

Stone Harbor was so hard ..yet you could make a ton of birdies if you got it going ....the shot you needed to hit was so obvious ...or was it ? . the angles  of attack and distance control  necessities made it unplayable for most ....even a really good player would eventually fall victim to the need to hit such precise shots ...to me it is much harder (then ) than Pine Vlalley or Galloway

but ...what a great place for a  big skin game...and if you were a tournament caliber player (say 3 and under ) you could give a 14 his handicap and beat him...an unusual event in this day and age .

.I remember playing with 16 pretty good players  (local pros and such) making five on eighteen .. thanks to a bad drive an da chip out ...and winning a skin     that's right sixteen guys ...worst handicap 5  and a bogey won a skin!


Mike Sweeney has it right when he alludes to the  sensory overload at Stone Harbor  ..even if you didn't quite realize what was wrong...

...you couldn't play an easy round there ...it required tremendous concentration  ...there was no let-up although some of the holes were real easy..notably the par fives...

the five pars were and are  birdie holes  ...but require lots of concentration

Unfortunately the  inordinate amount of luck needed at Stoney may have been the eventual doom of Muirheads' "masterpiece" .case in point bieng the tee shot on number two  ... You hit  ablind tee shot over a hill that has a severe left to right slant ..  lots of water right ...there is no bailout left ... from the back tee it requires a pretty good nuke to get it in the flat spot that is  preferred .. there is no good lay-up ....short of the hill at about 230 off the tee you were safe ..but faced with a  second shot that was terrifying to say the least  (this has been softened somewhat )

 ...

Eventually it wore out all but a few masochists (lol)  and revealed the "Emperor had no clothes "...when the cognoscenti ( the tournament player ) started saying that it was too far out ...

.it went from a showplace to a  curiosity piece ,  the average Joe ,who couldn't stand shooting 15 shots over his handicap, and losing two sleeves of Titleists to boot , was quick to join the chorus of naysayers

It strikes me as odd that Muirhead was a high handicapper ....as his knowledge of just how to punish a golfer thru geometry / angles shows a tremendous knowledge of the game...and refutes at the same time that you have to be a good player to be an architect

As we have often talked about ....Stone Harbor Golf Club ... was and continues to be an anachorism  ....eliciting wild opinions and controversy...
Anyone who played it remembers it ..they should have never changed the name from Jersey Devil..it s the perfect moniker

hopefully Desmond is laughing and smiling  somewhere as he reads this !

cheers

[Sean Leary]

How much has Stone Harbor changed and when did it change? I played 12-13 years ago...

[Mike Sweeney]

How much has Stone Harbor changed and when did it change? I played 12-13 years ago...

Not sure if more has been done since the GAP history was posted:



"In any event, over the nine years since the course opened, Gordon Shaffner has moved to mitigate the excesses. The island fairway on the unnervingly brilliant 6th has been lengthened. The sawtooth bunkers on the nonpareil 7th are now part of the same land mass as the green (so there is only one island instead of three, and it is bigger). The bulkheads at the 9th and 15th have been replaced by life-saving grassy banks. The fairways on 10 and 11 have been broadened and the approach to the 14th green has been opened up by removing the bunkers at the left front. And finally, on the "death or glory" 18th, the safe landing area to the right of the green has been enlarged. The net of all this is that there is considerably less chance of going off the deep end today than when the course opened in 1988.

Stone Harbor needed to be toned down, and it has been. But the tiger has scarcely been defanged. And if it is no longer quite so frightening, quite so punishing, it is still an enormously challenging (Slope 136) and exhilarating test, with shot values of a very high order hole after hole after hole. There has to be a place in golf for a visionary—indeed, an iconoclast—like Desmond Muirhead and for a risktaking club owner such as Gordon Shaffner, who must at times have felt like a Medici prince, a patron of the arts."



It has probably been 6 or 7 years since I last played it, and it certainly was not easy. As Archie mentions above, I hope they fixed that second fairway. I hit more than a few "good drives" off the tee, and then you get up to the landing area and it trickled into the water. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

What's wrong with this hole ?

By what standard is it deemed less than acceptable ?

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