Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams

[Mike_Cirba]

I have in my hand copies of the Dallin Aerials of Cobbs Creek, with photos beginning at 1928 thru 1939, which just arrived today..

I can say this much with certainty. 

By 1930 the course is much, much more similar to today's course than previous reports. 

The major change is that the land that is currently serving as an independent driving range down on Route 1 was part of the course.  As such, it seems that the loss of that land (for whatever conceiveable reason but I have a REAL good guess) necessitated the re-routing of a few holes.

However, the great news is that it is definitely possible to restore the course to what it was in 1930 (and I've never heard any account of any significant changes between 1916 and 1930, except for the building of the first 11 holes of the adjacent Karakung course, which are evident in the photos as well) is eminently possible because about 80% of today's course is original and it appears that every original greensite is intact! 

I have two more photos coming soon.

One thing I'd point out is that it certainly wasn't a masterful bunkering job and that a number of holes have openings in front but are bunkered all the way across the back of the green.   I'm betting Hugh Wilson had very little to do with the bunkering, and probably only the routing.

Also, the photos are great because they also seem to trace changes at the adjacent McCall Field GC by Flynn.

Oh...if he had only bunkered Cobbs! 

[Mike_Cirba]

I've been studying these aerials most of the night (ok, I'm trying for the "Dork of the Week" honors), and comparing them to Jim Finegan's description of Cobbs Creek in his "Centennial Tribute to Golf in Philadelphia", and I'm really confused.

With all due and proper respect to Mr. Finegan, I am perplexed when he states;

"Is the Cobbs Creek we play today really the course Hugh Wilson laid out 81 years ago?  Or, has it been altered over time that little of the original design remains?"

"There have been extensive changes, most of them stemming from the establishment of an anti-aircraft battery here during World War II (see my "Driving Range" comment above - MC).  Half a dozen holes are completely different.   Eight are just as Wilson laid them out (1, 2 3, 4, 7, 15, 16, and 18) and four others reflect some of the Wilson thinking."

I read this and then look at a series of aerials from between 1928 and 1939 and I can't understand what his source information is.   I do know that the first draft of a routing for Cobbs was dismissed prior to construction because of too many blind shots, and a later draft was implemented.   Perhaps this is the source of Mr. Finegan's contentions, because in viewing the aerials, this is what I see.

Starting on the clubhouse side with the holes (I've seen it sequenced where the 2 holes on the clubhouse side of the road are either 1 & 2 or 17 & 18...in this case we'll go with the modern version where they are the former), this is what the aerials indicate.

#1 - Same
#2 - Same
#3 - Same
#4 - Same
#5 - Same
#6 - Same
#7 - Perhaps playing from a slightly different, shorter tee, seems to play towards the same green.
#8 - Played from today's 8th tee as a par three to today's 14th green.
#9 - Today's #15
#10 - Going from the 15th green down the hill past #6, it was a dogleg right down the present neighboring driving range, bending right uphill to today's 8th green.
#11 - Today's 9th hole.
#12 - Today's 10th hole.
#13 - Today's 11th hole.
#14 - Today's 12th hole.
#15 - Today's 13th hole.
#16 - Today's 16th hole.
#17 - Today's 17th hole.
#18 - Today's 18th hole.

I might not have the sequencing exact, but it has to be really, really close.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Mike,

I am so excited someone has finally seen these aerials!

A few questions:

On your #10, I don't see how you could play from the current #15 green down the hill past #6 and then back up towards the 8th green without crossing over the current 7th fairway (even if that tee was up).  It would also have to be a long hole, similar in length to the current 14th.

I also wonder why Wilson wouldn't have fully utilized the creek which runs alongside the current range on the right.  I never realized it was there until I looked at the Google aerial.

I have always thought the current 9th tee was originally further back in front of where the parking lot for the driving range is.  Correct?

[Mike_Cirba]

Geoffrey,

You're correct on every count, including the fact that the old 9th tee is back where today's driving range parking lot is.

There also seems to be a crossover (not unusual at all for Wilson, considering Merion) from the present 15th green down the hill, past today's 7th fairway, to a tee down on the current driving range.   Also, that creek would have been in play.  

I should also mention that it appears that the old #9...today's #15...had a tee down near today's 14th green and played as a LONG par five back up the hill.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Your last point answered another question I had - how the corridor occupied by the current 14th was used.  The 15th green is my favorite approach on the course, and it would be even better trying to get home in two on a par 5.

Was the old 10th green set next to the creek like the current 4th?

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

It is keeping me up tonight just thinking about how good this course could be if you could reclaim the land by the range and get someone in there who knows what they are doing.

[Joe Bausch]

Fascinating Detective Cirba!

[Mike_Cirba]

Geoffrey,

I'm still studying the details, but it does appear that the creek on what I'm calling the 10th (the hole that runs thru the current driving range up to today's 8th green had a creek running down the left hand side of the fairway, but not close to the green.

Also, it appears that today's 4th hole is the one that was the island green.   The creek clearly wraps around the right side of that green, as well as the left, and I'm betting that was changed at some point due to flooding.

Also, it does seem possible that the hole playing to today's 7th green may have started from today's 14 tee up on the hill.

I'm still trying to locate the tee for the hole I'm calling the 10th (to today's 8th green).   I can't tell how far back it's set, and in some ways, I think it might have been where today's "back" tees are on #7, sweeping around the left side of the present 7 green down on the driving range (which could have been dangerous, a point Tillie made about the course in an article), and then back to the right.   If correct, that would have been a par five and one hell of a hole!

I should also point out that the actual sequencing of holes may have been different than what I'm describing.   For instance, it's possible that the course went from today's #6 to what I'm calling 10, then today's 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 7 (from today's 14th tee), then the par three to today's 14th green, then today's 15 as a par five, followed by today's 16.  

In fact, in thinking about it, that routing makes a whole lot more sense from a walkability standpoint.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bumping this up for Geoffrey who I evidently kept up all night.  

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Mike,

I was on business in AZ since Thursday.  Let me take a look at the Google aerial again tonight and I"ll give you my thoughts on your last post.

[Mike_Cirba]

Sounds good Geoffrey.   I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts.


All,

One thing I can't figure out is the pic of Cobbs in Geoff Shack's "Golden Age" book.  

It's a picture of an island green, identified as a short par three and called the 12h hole.

Two things are confusing.   Today's 4th hole of about 160 yards seems like an island green in the old aerials, as the creek is clearly swinging around the right side of the green (which is not the case today).

However, the pic in Geoff's book looks more like today's very short par three 6th hole, except it looks like the pic is taken from today's 7th tee.   I say that because it looks as though there is a rise in the background which would be the adjacent train tracks, and there is also a big tree just to the right of the green that I know was there back when I played there more often about 15 years or so ago.  

In fact, in looking at Google Maps I see that big tree is still to the right of the green.

I just can't figure out any way that hole could have been the 12th hole in the routing?

Also, the aerials I have so far do not show that hole very clearly, as it's short and sort of blocked by trees.

[Kyle Harris]

Mike, stands to reason that the tee for that hole could have been near the present 7th tee given that the lost 10th hole crossed in that region...

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike, stands to reason that the tee for that hole could have been near the present 7th tee given that the lost 10th hole crossed in that region...

Kyle,

I've been thinking the exact same thing.   I'm imagining that one left number 5, much like leaving the 11th green at ANGC, and went directly right, up the hill, to the present 7th tee, and then played what had to be one of the coolest short holes ever built to that sliver of island green pictured in Geoff's book.

I'm also guessing it changed because of flooding issues.   Frankly, the pic in Geoff's book doesn't look maintainable, unfortunately.   However, some variation with a deeper dug creek, walled up barriers, and perhaps some more elevation to the green might be workable in a restoration effort.

I still haven't a clue how this was ever the 12th hole in any conceivable routing.

Geoff Shackelford...where are you???

[MSusko]

Mike and All,

I have the photos that you have been looking at and after talking with a few of the Old Timers (two of which actually caddied here in the 30's) here I'm pretty certain the following was the routing that was used before 1940.

#1 - same
#2 - same
#3 - same
#4 - same
#5 - same
#6 - par 4, played from the tee of todays #6 up the hill to the green of #16.
#7 - par 4 today's #12
#8 - par 4 today's #13
#9 - par 4 from today's #14 tee to today's #7 green
#10 - par 3 from today's #8 tee to today's #14 green
#11 - par 5 from tee right of today's #14 green to today's 15th green
#12 - par 3 from hidden tee left of today's 14th tee down the hill to today's 6th green (this was the island green)
#13 - par five from a hidden tee behind today's 6th green through the driving range to today's 8th green.
#14 - today's ninth hole, tee was located in the driving range parking lot
#15 - today's 10th hole
#16 - today's 11th hole
#17 - same
#18 - same

Par was 36 - 35 - 71

As Mike pointed out the bunkering is very different today.  In most cases bunkers have been added and in several instances two small bunkers have been made into on big one.  The reason for the change in the 1940's is beacuse the Army came in a occupied the site that is now the Driving Range.  To this day there are large concrete pads on the middle of the range that were used as gun platforms.  I hope this answers any questions.

Mark

[Mike_Cirba]

Mark,

Thanks so much for coming on here to answer the routing mysteries.

Wow...it's exciting to think about some of those holes!  Steve Shaeffer, Joe Bausch, and I hope to get down and see you before too long and compare some notes.

Best Regards,
Mike

[MSusko]

Mike,

I look forward to it.  We found the hidden tees I talked about above a couple years ago.  Once all the leaves fall you can see the old holes fairly well.  We also found some old stone steps set into the hillside to the right of today's #7 tee.  I also have some old scorecards from that era.  Let me know a time that is good for you so we can set it up.

Mark

[Mike_Cirba]

Mark,

I also now understand better what Tillinghast was saying when he talked about a number of potentially dangerous blind shots, especially for the many beginning golfers not fully aware of proper etiquette.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mark,

That sounds great...I'll get with Steve and Joe and we'll come up with a mutually convenient day.

I'll look forward to it, as well.  Thanks again for the historic insight!

[MSusko]

Mike,

Very true.  This is a problem that we deal with often here because of the 10th and 18th tee shots.  The problem is, however, less of one today because you can just drive up to the top of the hills but imagine back in the 20's walking up the slope to the 16th hole just to walk back down to hit your tee shot.  I'm guessing that most people just hit and hoped noone was there.  Also, have you noticed how most of the property was wide open and cut down to allow for the beginning golfer.  You can also see this with the bunkering since very few are actully in play.

Mark

[Mike_Cirba]

Mark,

Yes, the fairway cuts are hugely expansive, at times even creating conjoined, interconnected fairways between parallel holes.

Who said ANGC was the first in the country to go back to the Old Course model?  

[wsmorrison]

Fascinating stuff.  Nice going guys.  With a resource like the Dallin Collection at the Hagley, it is possible to see what facts can be unearthed.  The USGA Golf Architecture Archive and Research Center will provide a vast collection of information.  The data mined from this collection will provide a wealth of answers to many lingering questions.  For that matter, answers to questions we haven't even begun to ask yet.

[Joe Bausch]

Mark,

I also now understand better what Tillinghast was saying when he talked about a number of potentially dangerous blind shots, especially for the many beginning golfers not fully aware of proper etiquette.

Mike, you mean those beginners with Brownie cameras?  

[Mike_Cirba]

I don't know about you guys but this stuff is way more fascinating and exciting to me than seeing what King Tut looked like.  

That punter probably couldn't have designed anything more complex than a pyramid shaped hole!  

[Joe Bausch]

Mark, it seems that if the 'original' #13 par 5 had the tee very close to the current par 3 green #6, it would be very healthy in length, perhaps 600 yards.  And the other par 5 on the back, now the tough par 4 #11, might have been a real bear.  It looks to have played well over 500 yards, perhaps not quite to the current #14 length at 600, but it would have an uphill second shot (and 3rd!) as opposed to a downhill tee shot on #14 now.  I'll be curious to see those old cards with the yardages!

[MSusko]

Joe,

We measured them off a few years ago when we first looked at a restoration.  The driving range hole was around 580 yards and the old 11th was 550.  A few of the old timers told me that one of the reasons for the changes, besides the Army, was that the course was very difficult for most golfers.  For this reason the starters at the time would watch you hit your opening tee shot and if they didn't think you had the "game" for Cobb's they would ask you to pick up your ball and go play Karakung.  The stories I've heard over the last 5 years here are amazing.  Once I have some time going into the winter I'll post a few for you guys.

Mark