News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
routing how its done
« on: September 14, 2007, 11:17:21 PM »
I realize that every piece of ground has its own characteristics and that there are so-called natural green sites.  After playing some new courses that had been dead flat but had a great deal of soil brought in  ie. Liberty National and Bayonne.  I wondered as I left how did they decide on the routing?  They could have done anything.  In fact the whole routing thing has me baffled.  Sometimes the architect will route the course so no two holes go in the same direction in succession and others will have three go the same way in a row.  I guess Pete Dye walked the ground while others work more from topos.  After a walk in the woods the other day I wondered, "How would I route a course through this jungle?  I had no clue.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:routing how its done
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2007, 11:36:47 PM »
Liberty National is somewhat rectangular and broken up ... if I recall.  Bayonne's property is somewhat irregular also.
So geometry played a big part with both of those.
The NYC skyline and Statue of Liberty were the anchor points for both also.

There are lots of permutations for any one piece of property, and most architects solutions would be quite different.

Examples are major renovations and when multiple architects routed a course on the same property.

One day I'll share in detail what I did at Wolf Point.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 11:39:39 PM by Mike Nuzzo »
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:routing how its done
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2007, 05:09:12 AM »
Tommy,
Pick up a copy of Forrest's book, Routing the Golf Course.  You'll enjoy it and learn something in the process.  As Mike says, there are so many permutations for any one piece of property and most would do something different.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2007, 05:10:14 AM by Mark_Fine »

Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:routing how its done
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2007, 11:42:36 AM »
Pertaining to routings, I thought Tom's Anatomy of a Golf Course was a good read as well.
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:routing how its done
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2007, 09:34:11 PM »
Tommy — With all due respect, pick up two copies. You never know ehen you will need a replacement to overcome those torn pages, dog-eared corners or the hassle of spilt coffee on an interesting chapter.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:routing how its done
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2007, 09:35:02 PM »
Tommy — With all due respect, pick up two copies. You never know when you may need a replacement to overcome those torn pages, dog-eared corners or the hassle of spilt coffee on an interesting chapter.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:routing how its done
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2007, 09:49:50 PM »
I will get four copies so I can give two to my son.  Thanks for the advice.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:routing how its done
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2007, 09:52:36 PM »
Forest, WOW, Amazon wants some serious money for the book.  $85 new and $62 used.  I may have to wait.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:routing how its done
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2007, 09:53:01 PM »
I will get four copies so I can give two to my son.  Thanks for the advice.

I wish our Pastor was witty/funny....... ;D

Need a new congregation?

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:routing how its done
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2007, 09:56:52 PM »
You can always call Paula at 602-906-1818. As Office Master she has several copies available for $50 or something like that. Please do not quote me.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:routing how its done
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2007, 11:45:04 PM »
I was recently offered $105 for one of my copies....which I refused.....and it turned out to be not the only refusal I experienced as a consequence.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 11:47:51 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:routing how its done
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2007, 07:09:51 AM »
Tommy,
I'd take the $50 copy Forrest is offering.  He charged me $60 for mine.  

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:routing how its done
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2007, 08:24:09 AM »
Not exactly the book length treatment Forrest gave it, but here was my routing piece on Cybergolf.com:

While results are never standard, at least for me, I think the process is. Golf architects won't like me revealing this, or any "design secrets," especially since we shroud the subject in just enough mystery to elevate ourselves to "deity status," and keep anyone from routing courses themselves. Is that magician who divulged magic secrets on television still alive?

My first rule of routing is, if it works easily on the first try, it has 17 or 19 holes. I will get to other rules only after an introduction and shameless banter (read as, "this is padding"). However, I can tell you this about routing:

It's hard work. I usually prepare more than 20 preliminary schematics. I once labeled routings alphabetically, but after once running out of letters, I now use numbers. On some projects, infinity is not enough. As a non-genius, I take inspiration from those who say that genius is 90 percent perspiration, and 10 percent inspiration.

It's a science. My childhood neighbors listened to my ramblings on golf courses, often remarking, "Well, there is a science to everything," which probably was a polite way to end the subject. But it is a phrase I remember to this day. I mention this to commemorate their contribution to my career, and to sum up my ideas on the routing process, which I apply to every routing, even though each site and routing is so different. The process involves:

· Analysis.

· Test and Concept Routings.

· Refinement – Plan and field (often right through clearing and earthmoving).

· Play downhill. The best way to do this is to locate tees on small rises – although large ones work even better. From there, the hole "lays out in front of you like a road map."

I can also tell you some myths that are not in the least true. Architects don't "find natural green sites first. This is more "sound bite" than sound practice. While we do catalogue all the nifty, neat and natural features on a site, every feature can be important, if fit in the basic scheme. If not, it becomes, well, less important.

Architects don't "listen to the land.” I tried, but this certainly didn't work internationally, when the land spoke in a foreign language (like metric), and even Southern routings took longer because the land spoke slowly, usually in a soft drawl. And in the Northeast, I ask the land questions, and it answers, "Who wants to know?" in typical New York fashion.

In fact, we do most work on topo maps, using pre-made clear plastic golf holes to set a general pattern, which never fails to astonish and disappoint office visitors. Our computers do not replace the human thought process in routing.

Routing, in the end, is really just like one giant jigsaw puzzle. We just keep test-fitting the pieces until we make them all fit!



And later, speaking of using the wind for routing:

The Scots said, "Nae wind, nae golf." ("No wind, no golf.") It still is a vital design element – and one that separates golf from the monotony of video games. Golf announcers still say, "scores are up because of the wind," because it's true.

We account for the prevailing wind in routing, taking cues from early architects, who triangulated* holes, aiming them in every direction so golfers faced different downwind, headwind, and crosswinds from hole to hole. Today, designing for wind variety is sometimes less important as real estate and environmental mitigation have increased in relative importance.

We strive to vary winds on par-3, short and long par-4 and par-5 holes by hole direction, trying to get some of each "going to each point on the compass." If we always put long holes downwind, and short holes into the wind, they would perhaps play to similar lengths. Golfers REALLY remember a long hole into the wind, even if they don't like its difficulty.

If I make concessions to ideal variety for ease and speed of play, I favor upwind and downwind holes, as crosswinds are difficult for average players.

For additional challenge, I often conceal wind direction by placing tees and greens in sheltered areas. Each disguises wind, with sheltered greens preventing golfers from gauging wind speed or direction from the flagstick.

I loosely estimate wind effects in designing holes. Estimates aren't perfect, but it's better than ignoring winds altogether in planning.

I plan on 1 yard additional distance per miles-per-hour of average daily wind speed prevailing downwind, and 1.5 yards less distance per miles-per-hour average wind speed in prevailing headwind, following a Golf Digest study suggesting that wind hurts golfers more than it helps. Trailing winds reduce backspin, reducing lift, maximum height and distance. Headwind drives shots down, reducing both flight and roll distance.

We also consider simultaneous effects of the downhill/uphill shot, slope in the landing area, and the lie of the ball at address:

• Shots gain/lose flight by approximately 1 foot per vertical foot of difference. A shot 70 feet downhill will travel about 70 feet (23 yards) farther. Uphill shots lose similar distance.

• Roll is approximately 10 percent of total tee-shot distance. Downhill landing areas increase roll, and uphill slopes reduce it, without affecting flight distance. We estimate roll variations from slope percentage – i.e., 7 percent downhill/uphill slopes gain/lose 7 to 14 yards on normal turf.

• Draws roll 10 to 15 yards farther than fades. If a hole clearly calls for a draw, we allow for this in calculating the distance of a good tee shot.

* To my current readers – not in the more recent political meaning – where all holes stay in the middle of the road, as compared to the other politicians. It means all holes face different directions on consecutive holes, so the golfer faces winds blowing every which way.


Post script note - this must be getting old, because the "triangulation" joke was a Bill Clinton era jab......

 
 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:routing how its done
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2007, 10:57:49 AM »
Tommy, you only need to know one word to route a course.  Here it is:

HEXAPLEX




Dot, dot dot....










(Just trying to coax Tom Paul out into the open and into spinning another one of his Joshua Crane-esque yarns of indignation. ;))

Peter Pallotta

Re:routing how its done
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2007, 11:13:35 AM »
Jeff B
wow, that's a terrific post! Thanks very much for the details, and how clearly and simply you describe the process (while still leaving a lot of mystery, for health reasons :))

It reminded me: I used to write and help edit television biographies, and I remember how often we'd have a quote from someone that was amazingly good and on-point, only to find that, try as we might, we couldn't usefully include it in the final cut/routing.  Meanwhile, some insignificant little quote that we hardly noticed at first would invariably come back at the end and really deliver the goods, just because of where it had found a place in the overall puzzle.

Anyway, thanks again Jeff - good stuff.

Peter

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:routing how its done
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2007, 12:49:20 PM »
Jeff, I loved the quick summary, especially discussion of wind.  I think sheltering tees & greens can have a big impact on how the hole plays.  At least for me, the confusion about what the wind is doing can have a bigger role in shot execution than the actual effect of the wind would.