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Mike_Cirba

Great Holes That No One Knows About - aka Skyline's 18th
« on: August 10, 2007, 10:09:23 AM »
Forgive me if this is overkill but after just posting this on the "Mike Cirba" thread, I thought it might be good to start a place where people could post holes they think are great that no one else knows about.   It might be fun and educational for all of us.   I'll start with the 18th hole at Skyline GC in Carbondale, PA.  



The 18th at Skyline is perhaps the ultimate in both minimalism and naturalism.  There is not a single bunker or other man-made feature between the tee on one hillside and the green on the other.  There is no playable rough, as such, as all play areas (except the green) are mowed to fairway height.  

Whether through a stroke of luck, a flash of genius, a twist of fate, or perhaps proving the theory that putting 50 simians in a room for 50 years with typewriters would statistically produce something approximating Shakespeare, somehow the amateur architect (who shall remain nameless), after 17 holes ranging between dull and lifeless and decently good and creative managed to pull it all together into an absolutely brilliant Magnum Opus of a hole that you could play over and over in multiple ways.

Perhaps it’s best to start at the green, work back to the tee, and then describe the intermediary obstacles.  

The green is elevated about 40 feet above the landing area, and is tucked into a corner tight against the property line (and OB) on the right (a mere 2 paces) and backed up against a public road (and OB) behind (a mere 4 paces from the back edge).   The green itself is about 60 feet wide with significant natural undulations, bumps and hollows that almost split it into right and left sections.   It is extremely shallow from front to back, probably in the neighborhood of 45 feet, although the first ten feet of the green is a false front coming up from the natural slope of the hilltop, and is unusable as a hole location.  I’ve seen people putt off this green to front hole locations.   The left 3rd of the green falls pretty quickly from right to left, which is the general tilt of the entire green.  

Behind the green, the one saving grace is that just beyond the green there is a small hollow sweeping up a bank to the road, much like the back of the 13th at Augusta, to envision the “backboard” that helps contain a slightly over-aggressive shot.   (although it should be noted that I’ve seen balls coming in on a hot trajectory, especially during firm and fast summer conditions, that hit the green and bound across the road on a single bounce.)

The tee is located 392 yards away on another hillside, about the same elevation level as the green.  The tee shot plays downhill about 40 feet, but reaches bottom about 170 yards from the tee and then flattens out for the next 120 yards before beginning the uphill ascent to the green.   Beginning about 70 yards from the tee, a copse of thick woods runs parallel to the hole down the entire left side before becoming a rough-hewn, thick grassed meadow about 290 yards from the tee.   On the right side, a large specimen tree slightly intervenes from the right about 100 yards from the tee, and just further beyond there is a natural pond that extends out to about 300 yards from the tee, paralleling the fairway.  

Lest one think this is just a penal driving hole with woods left and water right, it should be noted that the fairway width is quite ample, and probably a full 65 yards at its widest point., although the fairway is generally rather rumply and the right side is sloped towards the water, slightly diminishing the effective playing width.

However, in the single best use of a strategic tree I’ve ever seen, at 250 yards from the tee, in the left center of the fairway, there is a huge specimen tree probably a few hundreds years old and about 70 feet tall, with wide, full branches.   Standing sentinel as the course’s final defense, it usually has the last laugh.

Remembering the severity of the green and the difficulty of the approach shot (from the lower landing area, it’s a true “Skyline” green (no pun intended), with OB looming very close and the timid shot likely to run further back down the hill leaving the ultimate in uncomfortable uphill stances for the dicey pitch, it’s important to be coming into this green with a high, lofted, soft short-iron shot.

However, as the final coup de grace, at about 290 yards, just before the uphill ascent, the formerly wide fairways narrows to about 15 yards wide, as the rough-hewn meadow and creekbed on the left intercedes, sweeping in towards the pond as the delta of a river might.   The creek is capped and covered and flows under that 15 yard stretch of fairway.   On the right, just beyond the end of the pond, are a row of trees about 20 feet high.

With a sense of humor, whimsy, and accuracy, the hole is rated as a par five, the shortest one I am familiar with at 392 yards.   Thus, eagle is very possible, as is 10.

There are a number of different options from the tee.   They include;

The 220 yard iron or hybrid to the right side quadrant of the fairway, trying to keep it right of the intervening tree, but not so far right as to bring the water into play.  However, this leaves the proverbial 170 yard, steeply uphill mid-iron that isn’t likely to hold the green very well.   Often, layup onto the hillside is the smart second-shot play from there.

The bold 250-260 yard downhill 3-wood that skirts past or even with the tree yet stays beween tree and pond.  I’ve seen this often lead to a direct run-in with the tree as the last second flinch impulse tends to be away from the pond and into the tree.   If played successfully, the ball ends up in the roughly 23 yard wide fairway that exists between the tree and pond at this point and leaves about 130 yards straight uphill that just begs for dreams of finishing eagle glory.

The crafty driver down the left side, that must go 260 but not to exceed 280 yards.   There is about 20 yards between the  specimen tree and the woods on the right, ending in a right-angled corner where the rough-hewn ground starts.   This is actually the garden spot, because from this vantage, one can actually come into the the green at the least oblique angle, and even see a good portion of the green, which isn’t possible from the right side.   The approach is slightly longer,…probably about 140 uphill because you’re now playing the hole as sort of a dogleg around the tree, but that’s offset by shooting into the uphill portion of the green and the increased visibility.

I’ve seen long bombers try two other avenues, as well.   I’ve seen some try to cross the 15 yard stretch at the 290 mark, which then widens back beyond the pond to about 30-40 yards wide for the last 100 yards.   I’ve even seen bombers try to drive it over the pond, over the 20 foot trees beyond them, and even seen it successfully done a few scant times.

That should be enough to now…I’d just ask anyone interested to think about what recovery shots and options would follow after any of the above options fail, especially considering that another smaller spring fed pond somehow incongruously appears on the hillside about 20 yards left and short of the green.






Peter Pallotta

Re:Great Holes That No One Knows About - aka Skyline's 18th
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2007, 10:12:55 AM »
I read it on the other thread. A really wonderful write-up, Mike. Great stuff.

Peter

Mike_Cirba

Re:Great Holes That No One Knows About - aka Skyline's 18th
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2007, 10:33:53 AM »
Thanks, Peter...

Like the 18th at Pebble, it's one of the few holes that have been improved by technological equipment gains of the past 20 years.  

When I was in high school, you only had 3 or 4 effective options from the tee.   ;D

Tom_Doak

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Re:Great Holes That No One Knows About - aka Skyline's 18th
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2007, 07:34:55 AM »
Mike:

Hate to see the idea of a good thread get lost on page 2, so I'm bumping this.  Can't tell if you seriously think that's a great hole, or it is all tongue in cheek, which is probably why you've failed to inspire others to chime in.

PS  The New Yorker's cartoon caption contest this week is for a drawing on the "50 simians" idea.  Caption A will undoubtedly win:  "Have you considered writing this story in the third monkey rather than the first monkey?"  But all writers will vote for Caption B:  "We'll have to run it by out infinite number of editors."  :)

Kyle Harris

Re:Great Holes That No One Knows About - aka Skyline's 18th
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2007, 07:53:11 AM »
Our local muni, the venerable and elite Warminster's Five Ponds Golf Club, has one that qualifies: the ninth.

Centered here as the dog leg right moving from bottom right:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=40.21675,-75.114233&spn=0.004637,0.008669&t=k&z=17&om=1

As with the ultimate hole at Skytop, the strategy is most apparent working from the green back to the tee.

The green features a severe back to front slope that makes putting from above the hole a very tricky proposition. Looking back down the fairway, it's easy to see how cutting the corner of the dogleg, and not quite getting far enough down the hole leaves a very difficult approach over the two greenside bunkers to a green that slopes awkwardly right to left.

However, the further one cuts the corner/challenges the bunker on the left or the creek that cuts across the hole after the turn, the more favorable the approach, especially to a back right hole location.

The nice thing about the hole is the tee shot, which depending on the weather, can be a long iron all the way up to full bore driver. The golfer is presented with an area almost 100 yards wide from which to choose a line, as well as the effective landing area that stretches from the bunker on the left/through the dogleg all the way to the creek. Compounding the issue in the crook of the dogleg is mounding covered with whatever-grass-they-could-grow-that-appeared-after-Lookaway-opened-to-make-it-vaguely-resemble-that-course.

Should the golfer choose to carry this hazard to get a shorter approach, the landing area tightens up with the creek, and yes, the cart path. A shorter tee shot to the left leaves a longer approach, but from the same ideal angle.

I should note that the green sits about 30 feet higher than the landing zone.

The approach from right at the turn point (roughly standing where the cart is visible in the Google aerial):
« Last Edit: August 12, 2007, 07:57:33 AM by Kyle Harris »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Great Holes That No One Knows About - aka Skyline's 18th
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2007, 09:27:09 AM »
Mike:

Hate to see the idea of a good thread get lost on page 2, so I'm bumping this.  Can't tell if you seriously think that's a great hole, or it is all tongue in cheek, which is probably why you've failed to inspire others to chime in.

PS  The New Yorker's cartoon caption contest this week is for a drawing on the "50 simians" idea.  Caption A will undoubtedly win:  "Have you considered writing this story in the third monkey rather than the first monkey?"  But all writers will vote for Caption B:  "We'll have to run it by out infinite number of editors."  :)

Tom,

I was on vacation the last week so I'm disappointed to find that this thread didn't exactly catch fire.

I wrote it tongue-in-cheek, but the golf hole in question is tremendous and I've played it literally hundreds of times.   The reason I wrote it tongue-in-cheek is that there is literally nothing that comes prior on the course that would lead you to believe that something this good awaits, and most of it is just basic back and forth farmland fare.

So, I started this thread hoping that others who have found a diamond in a haystack would contribute their own brand of obscure greatness, wherever they may come upon it....and, whether it achieved greatness by intent or accident.

Andy Hughes

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Re:Great Holes That No One Knows About - aka Skyline's 18th
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2007, 07:39:41 PM »
Mike, you lost me at 'Carbondale'.  

I'll nominate the 16th at Glenbrook, and not just because you are about the only one here who knows it.  Always thought it was a really good short par 4. Where to drive it--boldly, and end up treed left with a gawd-awful shot in over the deep bunker?  Safer and further back, with the ball likely above your feet slightly, and a longer shot into a green that you really, really wanted as short as club as possible.
Approach shot needed to stay clear of that bunker left, but sure didn't want to find the tiny bunker on the right.  Stay away from the bunkers and play to the middle or back, and risk going over and down the hill?
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

rjsimper

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Re:Great Holes That No One Knows About - aka Skyline's 18th
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2007, 08:00:15 PM »
13 at Palos Verdes Golf Club.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Great Holes That No One Knows About - aka Skyline's 18th
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2007, 08:24:14 PM »
Kyle

The more I play Five Ponds, the more I think it's under appreciated among the publinx of suburban Philadelphia. This year the greens are as good as most private clubs in the area. The course is not a pushover by any means. The par3s are very good as are many of the other holes.

I usually play the 9th with a 3W off the tee but I've been known to take driver to cut the dogleg and go for the landing zone over the creek. Sometimes it works.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Kyle Harris

Re:Great Holes That No One Knows About - aka Skyline's 18th
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2007, 08:28:37 PM »
Steve,

I've always contended that our local muni, the venerable and elite Warminster's Five Ponds Golf Club, has a great bone structure (routing). Joe Alvare is a great superintendent with a good long term vision for how to spend his not-too-small-not-too-big budget from the Township. Holes like 1, 2, 6, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, and 18 are as good as anything found in the Philadelphia area public arena and many private courses as well.

I've had too many days where I've hit the same club into the par 3s because of course setup/wind/time in the round for me to call them exceptional. Plus, three of them are in the same direction.

The 9th is an exceptional hole that gets better with each subsequent play as more and more options from the tee present themselves. You are literally present with an acre of landing area that offers all sorts of hazards from anywhere within it. The ninth is one of those holes that gets harder the more one plays it and over-thinks it.

Having played the course pretty much every day between August 12 to October 20 from 1998-2000, and many times in between... I've seen it all and have hit anything from 5 iron to full bore Driver down the first hole...

The other knock against the course is the greens just aren't that interesting.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 08:32:01 PM by Kyle Harris »

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Great Holes That No One Knows About - aka Skyline's 18th
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2007, 08:36:47 PM »
Kyle

Even with non interesting greens, it's not a piece of cake. Here are the revised ratings:

Blue-71.5/131 about 6500-6600y

White-69.8/126 about 6300y
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Powell Arms

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Re:Great Holes That No One Knows About - aka Skyline's 18th
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2007, 08:37:32 PM »

So, I started this thread hoping that others who have found a diamond in a haystack would contribute their own brand of obscure greatness, wherever they may come upon it....and, whether it achieved greatness by intent or accident.

OK, Mike, I'll bite.  In the spirit of great #10 holes, I'll go with the tenth at Paxon Hollow.  Playing 270 from the tips, this is a classic risk/reward driveable par 4.  A stream cuards the right of the green, which is also defended by a bunker front-right.  This hole, designed in 1928, is in the same family as Riviera #10, which predates Paxon by 12 months.



IMO, a real diamond in the haystack that is Paxon Hollow.  (On which I'd also nominate #6 and #18 as very good holes.)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 08:38:59 PM by Powell Arms »
PowellArms@gmail.com
@PWArms

Tom_Doak

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Re:Great Holes That No One Knows About - aka Skyline's 18th
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2007, 09:39:07 PM »
Inquiring minds want to know about that parallel hole to the right.  Is that a big tree directly in front of the green?

John Foley

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Re:Great Holes That No One Knows About - aka Skyline's 18th
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2007, 09:40:34 PM »
I'll offer up # 14 @ Greystone outside Rochester. Par 4 398 from tips, 365 from middle & 326 from the front. Slight dog leg left w/ tons of strategy.  Miss it left you've got OB & a bunker short, miss it right you've got a lot of gunch which you will most likely not recover from.

Fairway is very roller coaster. Tee shot is down hill w/ lost of movement on the ground. Green is elevated with a lot of movement, almost a double plateau but the green sections are not as defined as plateau's. The front right pin is alot of fun to play to and the front left and back are just plain tough.

Mike -you need to see this for yourself ;)

Approach From left hand side landing zone.



Front of the green looking back towards the tee



View of the green from the right side.



Oblique aerial - not the greatets, but nothing on Google Earth


Integrity in the moment of choice

Kyle Harris

Re:Great Holes That No One Knows About - aka Skyline's 18th
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2007, 09:44:59 PM »
Inquiring minds want to know about that parallel hole to the right.  Is that a big tree directly in front of the green?

Looks more like a tall skinny tree with quite the afternoon shadow

Powell Arms

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Re:Great Holes That No One Knows About - aka Skyline's 18th
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2007, 09:49:02 PM »
Inquiring minds want to know about that parallel hole to the right.  Is that a big tree directly in front of the green?

That's #18, and, yes, that is a tree in front of the green.  The tree is maybe 20 yds in front, and can be flown.  Certainly makes it tough to reach in 2.  The hole plays 535, uphill.

Quirky, in my opinion, and should have been removed in the last renovation, about 4-5 years ago

From the course website:

An excellent finishing hole. This par 5 dogleg left does not offer a let up on any shot. The drive is demanding with a water hazard to the left and a wooded hill to the right. You must cross the water on your second shot to a fairway that slopes sharply from left to right. The two tiered green is guarded by a large tree to the front right and bunkers on both sides of the putting surface.

Here's a view, also from their website, looking back down the fairway from behind the green.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 09:51:40 PM by Powell Arms »
PowellArms@gmail.com
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Great Holes That No One Knows About - aka Skyline's 18th
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2007, 09:00:55 AM »
Thanks for contributing, fellows...great stuff.

Kyle,

While I really like the 9th hole at Five Ponds, that has to be one of the worst cart path routings I've seen.   Still...fun hole that has a lot of variability.

Ryan,

Care to tell us why?

John F.,

You're right...I do.   Looks really good.

Powell,

Ahhh...Paxon Hollow...I used to play there a lot when I first moved into this area.  

It has an interesting history, though, and the 10th hole didn't exist until the 1960s.

The course was originally designed by J. Franklyn Meehan and Frances Warner in 1927.   The club ran into financial difficulties during the depression and ultimately was sold to White Manor Country Club.  When that club moved out to a new William & David Gordon course in Malvern in the early 60s, a Delaware county builder named Ralph Bodek bought the property with the intention of creating a large apartment complex.   Unable to get zoning changed, he operated it as a public golf course but extensive changes were made at that time, ostensibly to negate a huge climb from the original 10th green (see below) to the 11th tee.

I suspect the changes listed below were made by the Gordon's, as well, although I don't have definitive proof.

It's probably helpful to look at an aerial of the course to envision what the original course looked like.

Hole 1 - Original
Hole 2 - A short par four that ran down over the hill behind the present #2 green.
Hole 3 - A par three that ran from below the hill to a green near the present 3rd tee.
Hole 4 - Today's #3
Today's hole #4 did not exist.
Hole 5 - Original
Hole 6 - Original
Hole 7 - Original
Hole 8 - Original, but the tee was further right over near today's 4th green.
Hole 9 - Original

Hole 10 - Played from a tee near the existing practice green.  You can see the old tee as part of the shag range.   It was a par five that must have been incredible, as the green was about where the 17th green is today!  
Hole 11 - Today's 16th hole played in the opposite direction.   can you imagine the walk from the 10th green to the 11th tee?
Hole 12 - Today's 11th hole
Hole 13 - Today's 12th hole
Hole 14 - Same tee as today's 13th, but the old green was back a ways from today's foreshortened green.   You can still see the old green back there if you use your imagination.
Hole 15 - A par three coming back towards today's 16th tee.
Hole 16 - Original
Hole 17 - Today's 15th hole
Hole 18 - Played downhill from a tee near the present 15th green and then up to the existing 18th green.  

It must have been quite the course.


 

D_Malley

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Re:Great Holes That No One Knows About - aka Skyline's 18th
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2007, 10:48:23 AM »

PH #10 from the White Tee 255 yrds
back tee is at 277 and more elevated


as you can see new bunkers by Jim Wagner, picture shows bunkers during renovation without sand.

i think this is a very good drivable par 4, which kind of has a kicker hill just left of green, to help a perfectly struck drive.
similar to other famous #10's, but at a more managable distance for typical player.

D_Malley

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Re:Great Holes That No One Knows About - aka Skyline's 18th
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2007, 11:50:02 AM »
mike how can you play #16 in the opposite direction and then play it again as the original #16??

D_Malley

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Re:Great Holes That No One Knows About - aka Skyline's 18th
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2007, 11:52:34 AM »
there was another par 3 after the 10th down in the valley. you then had to walk up the current 17th hole and played #12 as current #16 in reverse.  the old 18th hole played from a tee to the right of our current 15th green to the current #18 green.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Great Holes That No One Knows About - aka Skyline's 18th
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2007, 01:30:27 PM »
there was another par 3 after the 10th down in the valley. you then had to walk up the current 17th hole and played #12 as current #16 in reverse.  the old 18th hole played from a tee to the right of our current 15th green to the current #18 green.

George,

Thanks for correcting me.   Yes, the old 16th would have to be quite a hole to be played both in reverse and as it is now simultaneously!  ;)  ;D

A few questions, if I might;

How close to the present 17th green was the old 10th green?  Same site?

In what direction did the next hole (the par 3 11th  you mentioned) go?  These days, there are a lot of trees in that area so it's tough to imagine it going anywhere but up towards the present 17th tee, but that's not possible.  Did it go back towards the present 10th green?  

Finally, and most importantly, do you know who did the changes?   I suspect the Gordon's but since they didn't list it in their revised courses in "Architects of Golf", I haven't the foggiest.

D_Malley

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Re:Great Holes That No One Knows About - aka Skyline's 18th
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2007, 03:59:46 PM »
actuall the old 11th green was in approx. the same site as the current 17th green.  the old 10th green was somewhere near the begining of the current 18th fairway.  and i believe the old 11 tee was on the other side of the creek, from somewhere in the area of the current forward tee on 18, but maybe a little longer.

i know most of the changes were made during the time that white manor leased the property.  i do not know who actually did the work.

Jesse Jones

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Re:Great Holes That No One Knows About - aka Skyline's 18th
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2007, 09:34:20 PM »
#14 at Country Club of Maryland.
I can't find any pictures, but I love that short par 4.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Great Holes That No One Knows About - aka Skyline's 18th
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2007, 10:05:05 PM »
actuall the old 11th green was in approx. the same site as the current 17th green.  the old 10th green was somewhere near the begining of the current 18th fairway.  and i believe the old 11 tee was on the other side of the creek, from somewhere in the area of the current forward tee on 18, but maybe a little longer.

i know most of the changes were made during the time that white manor leased the property.  i do not know who actually did the work.

George,

Yes, I can see now how it must have gone.   The info I had was that the old 10th ran to the current 17th green, but that would have been a bit much.   Still, I'm envisioning it was a tremendous hole, and I'm thinking the 11th with the creek was a good one, as well.

Thanks for the info.   I'm betting that White Manor may have it in their archives.   I'll check with Jason M. to see what he might be able to uncover and let you know if we come up with anything.

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