[George Bahto]

Macdonald “invented” (self proclaimed) the Cape when he built National. His Cape green jutted out into Bulls Head Bay (check the definition of the word “CAPE”) and was moved “inland” when the new access road was built to the new gates (the present gates) behind the 17th green.

His “ideal holes” were copies of strategies from Europe - obviously you couldn’t “invent” the diagonal carry over a hazard (risk/reward) - certainly this drive all over the British Isles in one form or another.

So it is NOT the diagonal, risk/reward - it was the green jutting out into water !! ...........................  CONTRARY TO TWO RECENT ARTICLES WRITTEN DETAILING MACDONALD / RAYNOR CAPE HOLES by two of today’s architects!

Mid-Ocean-5th: strip away all the foliage around the 5th green and you’ll see it is jutting out in the water (a bit) yes, there is a risk/reward drive -

Fishers Island’s Cape juts out into wetlands (yes, there is also a risky drive - notice it is not over water - it is how close can you get to the water to gain advantage.

The 5th green  at Lido hung out into the sandy wastes of Long Beach.

The same holds true for others, that are on old scorecards of Raynor-bilt courses, called “Cape” holes.

So the evolution is this: The modern term “Cape hole” has evolved over the years because nearly everyone forgot about the old green into the water on THE NATIONAL GOLF LINKS OF AMERICA’s 14th  - most people know it for what it is today - the diagonal drive to the fairway - yes, risk vs reward.

Is there a right or wrong - I think so but others may not - it is what has become an “accepted term” I suppose.

Being a traditionalist I go with Charles Blair Macdonald - he “invented it”

One of the more interesting descriptions of a Cape green - (not a Cape hole there is a difference) - was written by Charlie Banks in 1929 where he described the 2nd green at Yale as a Cape green (as I stated in the interview) because it jutted out into “mid-air.” Now this from a guy who helped build the course and worked with Raynor.

Hope this helps

[Dan Kelly]

Mr. Bahto --

Is No. 16 at Hazeltine a true Cape hole?

[George Bahto]

the name is George Dan - sorry - I don't know the hole - you could send me a diagram?? or I'll speak with a friend who the asst super there

[Dan Kelly]

George (Dad taught me to be a Mr. user, until otherwise instructed) --

You can see an overhead photo at http://www.hngc.com/course/default.htm#Number%2016

[George Bahto]

that's what I consider a Cape hole - looks great

are you a member there?

[Dan Kelly]

George --

Afraid not. Haven't played there since the late '80s -- though I do tend to spend every waking hour there when they play a Major there.

[capeman]

17 Congressional qualifies.  Ask Tom Lehman how he likes it.

[RJ_Daley]

http://www.tobaccoroadgolf.com/layout11.html

George, would you consider the above link depicting par 5, #11 at Tobacco Road a "dry" cape hole?  There is an element of biting off as close as you dare to the right on the drive to get a chance at the green extending out "into air" on a diagonal or caped out orientation...  No water, but a disaster of a hazard if you don't carry the bite-off on either the drive, heroic second to green, or even lay-up getting as close as you dare to green for third shot.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I've always assumed Macdonald's Cape was modeled after the hole (4th) by the same name at Westward Ho! Are the two unrelated, Macdonald's being an original concept? I wonder if the Cape around a water hazard has been a positive develpoment, the alternative around some other type of hazard (like the one seen at Tabacco Road) would seem to promote bolder play and the possiblity of an interesting recovery. As Ran's thread about drops illustrates, a drop out of the water is a drop out of the water, where as opportunities for recovery can be very exciting.

[George Bahto]

RJ: #11 at Tobacco Road  - man, that is a great looking hole!! Does it playa s good as it looks?

I think if that marvelous hazard goes around the other sides of the green it might be what I consider a Cape green - or if the green was a precarious shelf or plateau it might be that.

Most of the Capes of Macdonald/Raynor were shorter par-4s.

On old scorecards from the 1920s some were listed:

* 2nd at Castle Harbour
* 5th at Lido
* Morris County Country Club, the12th
* 5th at Ocean Links
* 8th at St Lois
* 10th at Yeamans Hall

I think the 16th green at TPC Sawgrass is a Cape-style green - most people think 18-TPC Sawgrass as a cape hole, including myself, until I got into the old articles and maps researching National.

In 1914 Macdonald and Henry Whigham (his Son in Law) published and article in the magazine of the day Golf Illustrated:

“CAPE”

by C. B. Macdonald and H. J. Whigham

     The fourteenth hole at the National Golf Links is called the Cape Hole, because the green extends out into the sea with which it is surrounded upon by three sides. It is today [1914] one of the most individual holes in existence and there is probably not another like it anywhere.   ...................   One who has been accustomed to the ordinary hazard placed to penalize a slice can have no conception of the effect which this limitless expanse of water has; and especially so because it stands mercilessly guarding the shortest line to the hole. The ordinary echelon bunker asks no more than to be carried, but here, not only a good carry is demanded, but the most precise direction. The temptation to risk it is very great for the line to the line to the middle of the fairgreen at a distance of 210 yards, is but a shade to the left of this longest carry, and it is at this point in the fairgreen is but forty-seven yards in width, with a series of four large and traps to catch a pull, the risk is mandatory upon the long driver (G Bahto note: with hickory shafts and gutty ball long drivers of the time could only carry the ball about 180 yards at best). If the shot is successful, the player is left with a niblick pitch over a pebbly beach onto a flat green which from his position is one hundred feet in width. An over approach is disastrous, consequently a par four to this hole, which by land is but a little over 300 yards carry, is very satisfying".

[ChipOat]

George Bahto:

Your point is spot-on re: 180 yard carries.  At the risk of sounding picky, wasn't the gutty out and the Haskell ball "in" by 1908 - the year NGLA was begun?

Also, will your publisher allow you to distribute autographed books over this website?  You'd sell a ton!

CO

[SPDB]

I have often wished that the 8th at Rockaway was longer such that the player would be forced to carry the bay in his approach to the hole. The green is clearly a cape green, but since it rarely attacked from any position which would require a "heroic" shot, the thrill of the Cape is missing. If I had my druthers, the hole would probably play as a fairly long par 4 and there would be some subtle movement of the throat into the green whereby the ball could be bounded in from the left of the green by the shorter player using a longer club. The longer hitter of the tee though, would clearly have to negotiate a play over the bay into the back pin.

Clearly this is just fantasy, since geography really dictates the length of this hole.

Here is an overhead. I think the yardage on the hole is just over 300.

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?pan=s&mapdata=ULfEtX9%2beHcO81jVELVJ0tjXXHocKjAsQSZN6dBHm5yyz3%2buqAKZL0s4YHCV0GjuG4kIBv1qkHvlfcM06LmFkdTLAZeBsmypumQHyEAO3
5Ko%2bFEiTfXTKCSUJocfZzLSCK0dMRHVWeCNv4QNeMxMnaifpPwTCBxF8KNFWERzJXUedjMxWkcmG8i
o6W5lepnEmPMCuryiAAvmdAXLFFkL2XBSmMezwpmp1XQZVqkTy0Bqlst8SAxVZ6uv4s7aHESnYn8umE%
2fpGroA5rF%2bvaL31skzGr284OVZ

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

This is the reason that this site is so great, thanks for the great insight.
Ben

[GeoffreyC]

The 8th at Rockaway Hunt is a 3-wood out to the left and a sand wedge into the green taking the water out of play.  Its a fun hole in part because the green falls away to the back left making the pitch shots challenging. The wind is really a big factor with the hole sitting right against the water.

I'd hate to have to hit more than an 8-iron into that green.

[George Bahto]

chipoat - that should have read Haskell - thanks

"distribute autographed books over this website" - I don't think that would be right

Ben - thank you

this website is a textbook - lots to learn for everyone

wouldn't you love to see a list of the "big-name lurkers" !! they call "us" the "dot-com-ers"

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Not to throw a wrench into the process Uncle George, But wasn't "the Cape" a model or strategy after the famed first at Macrihanish?

[TEPaul]

Here's a real true cape hole that appears extremely similar to NGLA's original #14 with the green really sticking out in the water and the only way to hit the green from the tee was an all water carry. In dimension and actual appearance the hole is very similer to NGLA's #14 except it obviously came off of a high tee with maybe 35ft of elevation change.  

As I measure it the dimensions appear about 225yds to reach terra firma directly at the green and about 245yds to the middle of the green! The alternate drive off to the left does not really risk water unless you wanted to land within about 40-50yds left of the green! The alternate drive down the left appears to make the hole play a bit over 300, just like NGLA's #14!

You're going to be pretty amazed when you here what it is! It's Pine Valley's #14!--the hole that was never built!!

The reasons why are very interesting and are all part of the complexities of the stretch that Crump got sort of stuck on for quite some time, holes #12-15! The rest of the course was actually finished while he was struggling to work out the routing and design details on this stretch! Lore says that Crump's eventual discovery of the amazing present green site on #13 (Tillinghast's recommendation?!) was the key that made the remainder of the routing and course's design fall into place and obviously made this hole only a design memory! This #14 was never done but in the process one of the great par 4s in the world came into existence--#13!!

Who designed this remarkable Pine Valley true cape hole that was never to be? Hard to say! The drawing is Harry Colt's and the idea may have been his or it could very likely have been Crump's! Or it could even be very likely that the idea was MacDonald's himself and given to Crump! We know they talked and collaborated but nobody really knows what or even if MacDonald may have contributed to Pine Valley! But in   concept and certainly in look and playbability it is extremely similar to NGLA's  original #14, what GeorgeB says was the original cape hole!

[SPDB]

Tom - in light of George's enlightening edification, the 13th at PV seems to be the quintessential cape.

[TEPaul]

SPDB:

I don't see that at all. There is no water at all on #13 and the green really doesn't stick out either. The good approach is at the green maybe just skirting one of the loveliest bunker complexes in the world on the left starting well short of the green and ending just to the green's front left! The less risky alternate approach is to try to run the ball onto the green or leave it just short a bit like a redan shot!

Nothing at all cape-like about that to me. But the #14 I mentioned was a real cape in everyway--including the all water carry on the tee shot to the green!

[SPDB]

Ah, but as George Bahto has pointed out, water need not be part of a cape hole, for the the hole to have cape strategies.

Now that I rethink it, the 13th may not be quintessential, but the green does jut left into the waste area. Maybe not extreme, but i believe it possesses characteristics, nevertheless.

i'm having difficulty figuring out how the proposed 14th sets up, vis-a-vis the existing 14th. can you enlighten?

[George Bahto]

Tommy N: ..... you said: "Not to throw a wrench into the process Uncle George, But wasn't "the Cape" a model or strategy after the famed first at Macrihanish?

I've never heard that - enlighten me more, good friend from the left-coast!

[TEPaul]

Here's Tillinghast's distinctions and definitions on these types of holes:

      "As a rule the two terms (dogleg and elbow) are used indiscriminately, but I have always made this distinction. A dogleg hole provides some prounounced obstruction, which forms a corner in a twisted fairway from either side. If it be impossible to carry over this obstruction, but at the same time necessary to get beyond it in order to open up the next shot, we have a Dog-leg.
        If a similar obstruction may be carried by a courageous shot, which is rewarded by a very distinct advantage, we have an Elbow.
         There is still a third variation where a corner is formed close by the green itself, usually by the encroachment of a hillside or sandy waste, and this type is known as the Cape hole."

So we can see that again in the eyes of an achitect a whole variety of features (water, hillsides, sandy wastes, bunkers, mounds etc.) are interchangeable to accomplish the same concepts. We do certainly know, though, that the real definition of a "cape" is a piece of land jutting into a body of  water. But obviously architect's don't take that so literally with their ability to interchange features.

[redanman (Guest)]

SPDB

13 PVGC approach is mayberedan, but not Cape.

[ChipOat]

This is a test - this thread is creating computer problems for me.

[TEPaul]

Chip:

And then this will be a test too, to see if this thread is creating computer problems for me too. So far it's just a bit off-center but you can center it up by adjusting the bottom arrows on your computer screens. Here goes!

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