[GPazin]

Well, I guess I overstated my position a little. I agree with Tom Paul's clarification - I would also like to see the conditions right in the area where someone is forced to choose, not simply forced to take the ground approach. I still think the Tour's idea of firm & at least my idea of firm are pretty far apart. A well struck shot may be able to hold a green, but not just any shot like we see week in & week out.

I still don't believe anyone can stick a shot hitting a downslope & hold it - I don't care how many times you say you've seen it, Rich, though I do think we are talking degrees here. By sticking it & holding it, I mean to absolute lack of forward movement that we see all the time on the tube, rarely even one forward hop. Someone who can hit the downslope & accurately gauge the amount of forward kick certainly deserves to be rewarded. Next summer I will set up camp on one of the fallaway greens at the US Amateur at Oakmont & chart shots all day to see if anyone does it!

[GPazin]

P.S. to Dan Belden -

I don't think Tim's reaction was one of hostility - he simply asked you to clarify your point, which you did quite well , I think. Do you seriously expect anyone on this site to leave a statement like the one you made go unchallenged?

[Tim Weiman]

Dan Belden:

As I think George Pazin pointed out, this is a discussion group. When statements are made, it's not unusual for people to ask for clarification. If that is "hostility", then I'm not sure how we would discuss any topic.

There is no problem criticizing Tom Doak's work.  It just wasn't clear what point you were trying to make.  Citing Pacific Dunes when we were discussing whether "strategy" still exists at the professional level just didn't make a lot of sense to me. Clearly, it is not a golf course designed with the pros in mind.

As for your comments on the approach shots at Pine Valley, in fact we don't disagree. They do have trouble long and short just as many tee shots have trouble left and right.

[TEPaul]

Matt Ward:

I agree with you that firm and fast turf conditons may not be the ONLY thing but it sure is close to that overall if you really think about it, particularly on some styles and types of architecture!

I really do make a huge distinction when talking about firm and fast though. I think whenever anyone talks about firm and fast they should strive ALWAYS to break the subject down into TWO VERY distinct categories! "Through the green" and then the green surfaces themselves!

And it's necessary to go even farther than that in my opinion to a point where there is an "ideal balance" between the firm condtions "through the green" and the firmness of the green surface. The most necessary point "through the green" is naturally the "approaches"!

But the most important ingredient of all, I think, is the firmness of the green surfaces because that's the only area today that you can possibly begin to "dial down" total reliance and reliability to the ever-present aerial game of very good players!

And I believe that it's even becoming very apparent today to what exact degree you need to dial down the effectiveness of the aerial shot green approach! It's actually extremely identifiable for both players and supers! It really is that point where aerial approaches to greens will only lightly "dent" the green instead of "pitich marking" it by bringing up even a slight amount of subsoil!!

That's the "ideal" green surface firmness to dial down reliance on the aerial game because at that point players start thinking about other compromise shots and choices for effectiveness! And of course the approaches need to be ratched up in firmness to the point where players will have some faith and reliance that a ball bouncing through an approach onto the green really will work as visualized. There's nothing worse in this vein than trying that run-in approach, hitting the visualize shot and having the ball stop dead in the approach.

Clearly we've seen so much of that in modern times with "approach" overwatering that faith in that compromise shot has been almost totally lost and the shot is rarely if ever tried or thought about.

So that kind of thing is the "ideal maintenance meld" to me (but only this part of it since there are so many other interesting maintenance factors involved in the "ideal maintenance meld")--not just firm and fast but those two distinct areas and how they "balance each other" for partial reliability. And they really do have to be "partially reliable" or somewhat demanding in execution or even somewhat "iffy" in effectiveness to a degree because if either was totally effective the other would probably cease to be used as an option. In this way the whole thing really is something like "Gresham's Law" but in the converse!

Again, firm and fast isn't the ONLY thing but it really is a great deal! Modern age golf has seen so much of the aerial game and because of it we've almost forgotten that prime aspect of age old golfing that is "how the ball BOUNCES!!??

Also, some have asked--what about when it rains?

Well, naturally when that happens the whole equation is thrown into another dimension and the reality of that is as long as the course stays naturally wet and soft the aerial game will be back in spades and the ground game will be almost totally ineffective for a time!

So what? That's just part of the interest and variability of golf and it happens to be naturally emanating! But the course will dry out again and ideally return to that "ideal balance" inspiring or even requiring multi-optionalism!

[Mark_Fine]

I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb here, but how many PGA and/or USGA events do you see them watering down the fairways and greens?  I venture to say - Never!  I've attended numerous Professional events and I am always amazed at how much roll those guys get.  Heck at Colonial last year the ball didn't stop until it hit something.  I kept thinking I can hit it 320 yards in these conditions as well!  

I think weather and soil conditions play as big part as anything in the firmness of golf courses for championship play.  And as I've said many times, firm approaches are the key to shot options.  If approaches are soft, the ONLY option you have is aerial (regardless of the firmness of the greens).  
Mark

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

Let me clarify what I said earlier.

Despite all the information available about not over-watering I have seen plenty of examples from all my trips throughout the last few years where plenty of courses ARE STILL DOING IT!!!

Doesn't anyone get it?

Don't they understand that the "bounce" is part of the game?

Don't simpleton members at many clubs understand that "green" is not the golden rule in terms of turf development? Do they not know that strategy is impaired by this total ignorance. Do they not know that their individual course will be improved for all levels of players?

Look, I don't doubt that technology has played a HUGE role in much of the disucssion relating to how courses play and what needs to be done in regards to "strategy."

However, too many people who are entrusted with preparing golf courses seem to believe that it's better politically to throw tons of water down because it will keep the uneducated masses happy because they will have lush, green turf. I know as silly as that sounds from my experiences it's true.

Last year in playing GCGC I was shocked to see a course whose reputation is based upon being firm and fast be reduced to lush and overwatered conditions. The same deal applies to a great many courses on Long Island.

I just finished playing Mansion Ridge, a Nicklaus course just outside of NYC during a Met Golf Writer's outing and what do you think I found -- a course so overwatered you take racoon pelt divots from the fairways -- even after days and days of hot and dry weather!!!

I know the GCSAA has done plenty to educate its members about firm and fast conditions and how such a situation does better the quality of turf, but it seems either some superintendents don't "get it" or they are being overruled by members who can't take care of their own lawns. but are dictating that water be used in such heavy handed manner.

How turf is prepared is one key aspect to the fulfillment of strategy. The unknown bounces of the ball are, in my opinion, fundamental to the game and much can be gained in terms of restoring strategy if course conditions followed this route.

[TEPaul]

Mark:

I couldn't agree with you more that we're seeing so much more in the way of firm and fast conditions certainly at the premier tour events and amazingly at regular tour events too, to a larger degree! Mostly this is on the fairways or "through the green" but we're seeing more in the way of quite firm green surfaces too, certainly more than in years past.

But I do disagree with you, to some extent, when you say that firm approaches are KEY to shot options! Firm approaches are NECESSARY to shot options and very necessary but they aren't key, in my opinion, certainly not as key as really firm green surfaces--at least at the tour level and the level of the real good amateur!

Why would I say that? Simply because you can have firm approaches all day long but until and unless you have really firm green surfaces too golfers as good and as aerially inclined as tour pros will simply not choose ground approaching to greens (even if it's very available) unless you begin to remove some of the reliability of their aerial option into green surfaces!

Almost all today's touring pros, particularly the ones who grew up and play in America, are aerial specialists first and foremost and so are all the young good players in the wings coming up to follow them! I see this stuff all the time in the good tournaments I work like the PA State Am at Oakmont!

They want to hit the aerial shot, they insist on hitting the aerial shot, it's what they know and are completely used to and comfortable with--and they all do it extremely well! The only conceivable way of stopping them from that automatic inclination is to firm up the green surfaces first to a point where their even fairly well struck aerial shots to greens aren't that reliable anymore!

I can't tell you how well I can see that now particularly after spending hours on Oakmont's #1 & #10!! You virtually can't hit aerial shots into those two greens, particularly if they were just a bit firmer than they were (they weren't as firm as John Zimmer wanted them only because it rained the weekend before). But still with the rain aerial shots into those greens were "iffy", to say the least! But still that didn't stop most of these young golfers from trying it! Those two holes and their greens (runaway) were virtual labatories into the point I'm trying to make here!

Generally you don't want to take that aerial shot option away from them completely (and in this way Oakmont's #1 & #10 are not the ideal examples) only create a bit of doubt as to how well it will work (compared to what they grew up with and became used to) and then and only then will they start to look around and start to choose those firm approaches and other options!

That's not only creating available options but sometimes SOME availbable options still aren't used by some golfers if other options are completely reliable! The only way to make them use them all is to create an overall balance between the available options that leaves golfers a bit unsure as to which will work best and which won't!

That's the "quandry point" (which IS the "ideal maintenance meld" in the area of this firm and fast issue) where all options become not only available but also begin to be used more often!

[Jim_Kennedy]

This week I played two courses, Stockbridge GC in Stockbridge, Ma. and The Links At Unionvale, Unionvale, NY.
SGC is older than dirt (1895) and TLAU is 4/5 years old.

Both of these courses were maintained very green with little to no brown on the fairways. They both played firm and fast. No fairway plugs anywhere, even in the low spots, and nothing more than small dents on the greens, even from towering wedges or punched mid irons w/ lots of spin.

My take on this was that a course doesn't have to look brown to play in the condition that is admired by many, firm and fast.

[Dan_Belden]

Dear Tim and Gib:
  
    Forgot last night to put in a little disclaimer that I did not feel any hostillty from Tim's post.  I have in the past taken some unusual criticism for some critique of Apache Stronghold and PD, nevertheless I love a good challenge.  
  I thought PD would be relative to the strategy question as Doak started the thread.  I think the term sitting duck came about because I remeber what the guys did to Ballybunion in the Irish Open without any weather.  PD reminds me of Ballybunion because they are both so much fun to play.
  I do think though that some people underestimate how hard the greens are on tour.   Personaly the hardest greens I have ever played was a two week stretch on the then Nike tour, Playing in Richmond, VA and Cary,NC.  The greens were turning black in the afternoon.
  Perhaps a interesting question would be can you design a course with alot of strategy for the tour pro, and still be playable for the average guy.  I played Whistling Straits a couple of weeks ago, and it has strategy galor, but is it playable for the masses?

[TEPaul]

Matt:

Thanks for the clarification but if you've been around as much as you say you have and I have no doubt you have you know as well as I do to what extent most clubs and courses "get it" and "don't get it"!

You're just as familiar as any of us of the overall effects of what we've called the "Augusta Syndrome" for decades now! The total ironic joke is that Augusta itself in the Masters has never even been remotely close to what the real "Augusta Syndrome" is out in the rest of the country. Although the course has been an immaculate color of lush green for years now the balls have also rolled out very well but for some odd reason those who get caught up in the real "Augusta Syndrome" (massive amount of over irrigation) haven't apparently noticed the rollout at the Masters and the lack of it at their own courses!!

But if you've been out there that much you must know too that things have started to change that way and to an ever increasing extent! So I wouldn't dispair if I were you!

Have you been to Eastern LI in the last few years, have you been to Oakmont, Merion, Lancaster and a slew of other wiser clubs that are beginning to "get it" now in a bit of a rapid succession?

It's happening, Matt, and in an ever increasing extrapolation!

[TEPaul]

Jim Kennedy:

What you said there is music to my ears! And yes, it's often a bit of a misconception that a course, fairways, greens, whatever HAVE to brown out to some extent! They can, of course, and sometimes do but the ideal condition for firm and fast is a much lighter green that often has a bit of a sheen to it!

For some odd reason I call that look the "dull green sheen"! It's not only very visually apparent on fairways but also on green surfaces. When I see it I just know a course is where it should be in most all apects--certainly with firm and fast! Courses that look like that are basically firing on all eight cylinders and are at the "ideal maintenance meld" in that particular aspect!

At this point I've gotten good enough at identifying it that I can pretty much just tell how firm and fast a course is through me eyes only without even hitting a ball on it or seeing one hit!

I really feel this is a coming thing and I'm beginning now to think even bigtime!

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

When places as distinguished as GCGC don't "get it" I have my doubts. The sad reality is that the "movement" is only really just getting started.

Too many clubs are still in the "dark ages" (for the aforementioned reasons I gave in my previous post) when it comes to the whole concept of linkage between "firm and fast" and the enhancement of strategic options when playing for all levels of players.

[TEPaul]

Matt:

Maybe, but it's a lot better than it was last year which was better than it was the year before and so on!

And don't forget, none of us can really show up at a golf course we aren't that familiar with and tell if firm and fast conditions are definitely not being maintained or not ever maintained!

Unfortunately, it's a bit more complicated than that particularly coming out of about five decades of over irrigation!

If only it was so simple as just turning off the water but it surely isn't! We can't forget that grass, like any other living thing, needs time to be conditioned to another process too. And worst of all we have to consider the subsurface, the soil, how well it perks, how well roots can penetrate and grow longer and stronger and all those good things!

Unfortunately, those things like subsurface and soil conditions, necessary to healthy strong root structure can sometimes make the process of getting to good firm and fast conditions both expensive and even problematic to remediate.

One of the best bits of advice I ever heard in this vein was from Dave Wilbur, that a golf club cannot automatically assume and conclude that what can happen at the club across town or even across the street can happen at their course--or at least not easily!

It's probably a sad truth but if this firm and fast thing really starts to roll there will be clubs that will probably ruin their courses by making easy and dumb assumptions on this and not doing the transition process right.

We already almost had some assumptions like that at our club. Someone who probably has some power said he thought we should just tell our super to turn off the water!

I said I liked that direction but maybe first we should consult with the grass and while we were at it look underneath it and see what was there.

This is all real necessary and then you find out the truth about what the process of transitioning from maybe years of over irrigation to real firm and fast is going to be and what it entails.

Ever hear the word hydorphobia? Well, if you and your club are thinking of transitioning to firm and faster conditions I hope it's a word you're not about to hear! It can mean study, money, remediation of soil and subsurface and then of course your club will want to know at what value this firm and fast conditioning comes to!

[W.H. Cosgrove]

In another thread concerning recession and golf, we have been lamenting the poor business conditions in the industry.  

What is demanded by the casual player is a green verdant park.  The purists among us demand rock hard fairways and linoleum greens.  

I am positive that these conditions are attainable given the quality of today's irrigation systems and the technology they utilize.  ANGC would be the perfect example as TE Paul pointed out in his recent thread.  

The one thing that seems to be missing at a large portion of today's courses is the limitless monetary resources to control the application of H20.  I costs money to have greenskeepers on the golf course either firing off the aerial water or dragging hose.  

I play at what can be a fairly strategic golf course.  But the superintendent is often handcuffed by constraints of budget, and the torn by the various factions of the membership.  Strategy can be put back into golf if one of two things happen.

1) Funding is such that irrigation can be mangaged constantly during hot weather  

or

2) We reeducate the players in this country to accept some brown spots, some incredibly tight, firm lies and teach players more than one shot.  I would also suggest issuing ear plugs to cover the sound of all of the whining when high approach shots go bounding off the back of the greens!!  

[TEPaul]

Ah, Hell, screw all this super concern about whinning and assuming what golfers today want and don't want!

I'm convinced that nobody really knows what golfers generally really want including Tom Fazio although he appears sure he does know!

What golfers want or at least logicially will accept is good and interesting golf anyday and that means you know what! This concern about verdancy and acres of manicurism is bullshit!

What golfers want is what you give them if it's good golf and that's already once been totally proven. Where golf has gotten to noone much really understands anyway or how it got there!

If some incredibly rich people at Newport, Fishers and Maidstone can still manage to have plenty of fun on courses that don't even have fairway irrigation systems anyone can have fun on firm courses!

The hell with this overconcern about whinning for lush green and all this other immaculacy, just take it away from them and give them good golf again--they'll like it fine--even finer than they could ever conceivably imagine! They did once and they will again!

[Tim Weiman]

Dan Belden:

Everyone remembers the four extraordinary days in Ballybunion during the 2000 Irish Open, but there wasn’t much concern about the course being a “sitting duck”.  In fact, just the reverse was true.

During the Wednesday practice round the players had a very difficult time and there was concern the course would play too difficult. So, the decision was made to back off cutting the greens and go easy with the pin positions. By Saturday morning some people felt officials went too far accommodating the players, especially given the weekend weather forecast.

But, nobody really cared.  It was a long struggle to bring the event to Ballybunion and everyone was thrilled was how things turned out. The parade Saturday night and band playing the Rolling Stones “Sympathy For The Devil” brought tears to my eyes.  Then, too, I’ll always remember Darren Clarke explaining (between pints) that “he wasn’t here to play any of that Tiger Woods golf……this is Ireland”.

Trying to build a course that satisfies both professionals and “the masses”, might still be a worthwhile objective.  But, part of what people appreciate about Pacific Dunes is that Keiser/Doak didn’t get hung up on this objective.

Several years ago a very good golfer told me he was bored with Cypress Point because it was too easy.  He preferred playing PGA West from the tips. To each his own!

[W.H. Cosgrove]

TE
Point taken, now we can kidnap and hogtie the members it takes to pay for it.

Nothing wrong with idealism if you can make it pay.  And by the way, most hackers don't have a clue of what a good golf course is.  They just want the cart girl to be well endowed, under dressed and provide cold beer on a regular basis.  

Newport, Maidstone and Fishers exist and survive in a space unavailable to most.  

[Lester George]

Tom Doak,

Interesting discussion you have sparked.  I couldn't agree more that it is becoming harder and harder to design strategy into courses, especially when teens are hitting so far that they lay waste to what used to be considered long.  

As I was renovating Roanke Country Club last year I was amazed to find the kids playing in the Scott Robertson Memorial hitting so far.  Hunter Mahan, who played in the US Amateur final last week drove the 10th hole at RCC, a mere 367 yard par four.  

Like you, I try to design for the other 99% because thats the audience that I want to please, but every now and then it would be nice if the pros could challenged.  I am afraid it's going to have to continue to be by the USGA in the way they set up the courses, but that represents another small segment of the market.  Only when the PGA Tour, LPGA Tour, and European Tour start setting up some difficult scenarios will we find strategy being an integral part of playing the game again.  Unfortunately, every time it get a little too hard (Carnoustie, Saturday at Muirfield, Bethpage) the pros take whinning and moaning to a galacticly new level.  

Anyway, I admire your stuff and hope you keep on pushing the envelope.  Regards.

Lester

[TEPaul]

Cos:

I guess you're right--I'm probably just spewing idealism!

The rate I'm going today with some pretty uncharacteristic posts I guess I must have fallen out of the wrong side of the bed last night without realizing it!

So, let them have their beer and cart girls if that's what they really want and I'll save my firm and fast ranting for another day and another place.

I have to try to always remember;

"Golf is a great big game and there's always room in it for everyone!"

[TEPaul]

Tim Weiman:

Real nice post there about Ballybunion, the Irish Open and particularly Darren Clarke!

I like that guy a helluva lot! Ever since he met Woods in the World Match play finals and caught him coming out of the final turn into the home stretch I thought he plays golf in a way we should all take note of!

The thing that really got my attention with Clarke on that day  was with all the hoopla on the first tee of the finals he just sauntered up to the tee with a big cigar, nodded right, left, forward and aft, took a puff of his cigar, flipped it on the ground, stuck the ball on the peg in the ground all with super efficiency of motion and ripped one down the middle as if it wasn't much a big deal!

Now, who couldn't admire a tour pro like that?

And so as not to get off the subject of this topic, my recollection of the way Darren played that final round was just about textbook match play strategic from beginning to end--so much so, in fact, that it appeared to trip up Woods who seemed to get out of sorts strategically at just the wrong match play moment!

[Dan_Belden]

Tim:

   That was really interesting about Ballybunion..  It would be interesting to find out how they set up the course on the weekend.  Did they stay with the easier setup.
   .
   As for the guy who prefers PGA West to Cypress, unless his name is Tiger I wouldn't put too much stock into that one. And even at that I think that Tiger would take Cypress every time.  
   As for courses that are playable for the masses and a touring pro, I would think that Shinnecock has got to be pretty close to the top of the list.  I would like to hear your take on that, and that of Tom Pauls.    

[TEPaul]

Dan:

I think you're asking how Shinnecock plays for the touring pro and also for the member level. I think the course has enormous elasticity of play and particularly setup that way, if you know what I mean. I believe many of the really great world class courses (that double as championship venues) have this particular asset in one interesting way or another!

I've played the course some over the years but I really don't know the course as well as I would like or at least the little nuances and details of it.

With our Flynn research, though, that should change very shortly! We do have some of the original Flynn topo with hole drawing blueprints, some very interesting "iterations" for the course, some of what wasn't built and some of what was. It's really fascinating stuff and I can tell you Shinnecock was built very much to Flynn's detailed hole drawings and specs. We also know the true story on this Dick Wilson attribution thing that's been floating around for years!

But to me the course is super strong--super strong, and not much different at all now really from "as built". That alone is pretty amazing! That alone tells me Flynn was some kind of real futurist or else they asked for one helluva a championship test and course or both!

I think the members love and respect the course and basically have a ball on it, but I would like to know who plays the back tees and who doesn't and hope to find out that soon.

I'm still a low handicap who doesn't hit it, particularly my driver very far and I know if I had to play that course from the back as I guess I would if I belonged there (for certain things) it would definitely beat me up and leave me drained!

But Shinnecock pretty much has it all in my book--for a whole variety of reasons!

Matter of fact, I'm predicting that in the next 2-5 years Shinnecock will hit the top of the lists! And if it happens to, no way would I ever question that!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Sadly, I must agree with Matt Ward regarding GCGC.

TELEVISION has been a horrible influence because it's all about VISUAL presentation, not PLAYABILITY.

When a membership pressures the superintendent to get it green like ANGC (even though that condition at ANGC is brief) the playability suffers and your beloved "Maintainance Meld" goes out the window.

In the end, the members suffer, as the course becomes less enjoyable to play, the way the revered architects intended, and the superintendent becomes disheartened.

But, this is what the uninformed masses want, and the connection to the club's historical past is lost as new generations of golfers, with no prior sense of golf or a club's history join.  They certainly have no understanding of
"The Maintainance Meld"

Give me a dictatorship !  Long live Ken Bakst !

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Really wasn't questioning Matt Ward about him saying GCGC was soft specifically--just that it's sometimes hard for any of us to tell in a visit or two at any particular course we're otherwise not very familiar with.

But I know GCGC is apparently going in that over-irrigated direction because you told me so some time ago and certainly you know!

If I can help out in any way I'd sure want to do that. But who the hell would listen to me? Most everyone these days thinks I'm crazy and the real pisser is they might be right!

[Tim Weiman]

Dan Belden:

I can't honestly speak to how every hole was set up for the weekend. On the hole I served as marshall (#7 - which played as the second hole for the tournament), they stayed pretty conservative for the weekend as well. I remember someone asking a Tour officials why they didn't go for a tougher set up and the guy really didn't explain.

But, the point worth stressing is that nobody was concerned with the scoring.  Everyone was thrilled with the enjoyable weather and the big party scene the event became. On Saturday night the center of town was wall to wall people until four in the morning (including the likes of Darren Clarke and Ian Woosnam).

There was no "macho" concern about how the course was holding up.  Instead, members thought of the event as a once in a lifetime thing so why not celebrate the incredible weather and enjoy the whole thing.  Besides, the weather was so benign oldtimers could sit back smuggly and say "the pros didn't really play Ballybunion". Actually, some of the players said the same thing.

Was there a sad note to the 2000 Irish Open? Yes, there was. Ballybunion's Captain, some guy who won several Open Championships wasn't able to play in the event......it had something to do with the US Senior Open being played the same weekend.

But, we did get to see Seve hit his opening tee shot into the concession area!

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