Which courses in the country have a shot at number one..

[John Kavanaugh]

Based on my recent experience during a one day visit under perfect conditions I believe that The Riviera CC has a legit shot at being the best course in the country that day at that time.  As you know, courses have personalities much like us in that some days they are tired and other days on top of their game.  I was lucky enough to find Riviera at the top of her game with 60 deg temps, a three club wind, fast and firm turf, no one in front or behind us, celebrity sightings, as good a caddy as I have ever seen and a great host who knew and was kind enought to explain to me the architectural and social history of the club.  I hit a couple of shots as good as ever hit in the history of the club and some as bad as ever imagined...so the play was fine to boot.  That being said, under perfect conditions such as the above how many and what courses have a legit shot at being number one.

note:  This is the danger of only playing a course once as some days are just too good to be true.

note note:  I have heard that other well qualified individuals have said that Riviera may be the best designed course in the country...I'm not talking about some day with my dad in the sun...I'm talking about a legit number one course.

[JESII]

the same number as do today...whatever that number is.

[Garland Bayley]

Well John,

What other pretenders to the crown have you played?

From my playing experience, Bully Pulpit in Medora, ND has a legit shot at number 1.
 

[Matthew Hunt]

I for one hearby pledge not to post on any rating thread...who is with me.

Based on my recent experience during a one day visit under perfect conditions I believe that The Riviera CC has a legit shot at being the best course in the country that day at that time.  As you know, courses have personalities much like us in that some days they are tired and other days on top of their game.  I was lucky enough to find Riviera at the top of her game with 60 deg temps, a three club wind, fast and firm turf, no one in front or behind us, celebrity sightings, as good a caddy as I have ever seen and a great host who knew and was kind enought to explain to me the architectural and social history of the club.  I hit a couple of shots as good as ever hit in the history of the club and some as bad as ever imagined...so the play was fine to boot.  That being said, under perfect conditions such as the above how many and what courses have a legit shot at being number one.

note:  This is the danger of only playing a course once as some days are just too good to be true.

note note:  I have heard that other well qualified individuals have said that Riviera may be the best designed course in the country...I'm not talking about some day with my dad in the sun...I'm talking about a legit number one course.

[John Kavanaugh]

Garland,

For me personally I would need some history associated with the course for it to be number one.  Olympic Lake and Pinehurst are a couple of courses I have played that have a shot.  I love a great starter and finisher and have to say that the 18th at Riviera is so good that it is going to be tough to beat.  Sadly, I will also always prefer playing a private with a member to playing a public like Pinehurst.

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

Riviera for me is one of the very top considerations for best course from an architectural design standpoint.   I found that the features are extremely bold, which never gets captured well on television.

Glad you enjoyed it.

[John Kavanaugh]

I for one hearby pledge not to post on any rating thread...who is with me.

Based on my recent experience during a one day visit under perfect conditions I believe that The Riviera CC has a legit shot at being the best course in the country that day at that time.  As you know, courses have personalities much like us in that some days they are tired and other days on top of their game.  I was lucky enough to find Riviera at the top of her game with 60 deg temps, a three club wind, fast and firm turf, no one in front or behind us, celebrity sightings, as good a caddy as I have ever seen and a great host who knew and was kind enought to explain to me the architectural and social history of the club.  I hit a couple of shots as good as ever hit in the history of the club and some as bad as ever imagined...so the play was fine to boot.  That being said, under perfect conditions such as the above how many and what courses have a legit shot at being number one.

note:  This is the danger of only playing a course once as some days are just too good to be true.

note note:  I have heard that other well qualified individuals have said that Riviera may be the best designed course in the country...I'm not talking about some day with my dad in the sun...I'm talking about a legit number one course.

Mathew,

I have also said in the past that I would not talk to children on the internet.  This is not a rating thread - It is an opinion piece.

[RJ_Daley]

Matthew, very funny!

But, I for one would like to hear in JKs own words, every detail of the wonderous golf shot he hit from 10 tee.  What club, where was the wind, what ball flight, what were you thinking when you hit it, where did it land, how did it bounce, what hazards were avoided, what was left for a putt or chip, did you make it, and what did you think as you walked to 11?

I didn't play, only toured Riviera with Tommy as my guide. I felt it was one of the best I have ever seen.

I haven't played #s 1-2-3 etc.  I don't care which is 1-2-3 as a ranking matter.  I do think that there is a small number of all world best golf courses as collectively identified by nearly everyone, and that BallyNeal will be thought of as among them in the near future.

[Garland Bayley]

Matthew,

I am happy to see that you have learned how to learn the search engine to stick it to John K.  

No Mike, he just followed the thread you posted and quoted from it.

[Matthew Hunt]

I for one hearby pledge not to post on any rating thread...who is with me.

Based on my recent experience during a one day visit under perfect conditions I believe that The Riviera CC has a legit shot at being the best course in the country that day at that time.  As you know, courses have personalities much like us in that some days they are tired and other days on top of their game.  I was lucky enough to find Riviera at the top of her game with 60 deg temps, a three club wind, fast and firm turf, no one in front or behind us, celebrity sightings, as good a caddy as I have ever seen and a great host who knew and was kind enought to explain to me the architectural and social history of the club.  I hit a couple of shots as good as ever hit in the history of the club and some as bad as ever imagined...so the play was fine to boot.  That being said, under perfect conditions such as the above how many and what courses have a legit shot at being number one.

note:  This is the danger of only playing a course once as some days are just too good to be true.

note note:  I have heard that other well qualified individuals have said that Riviera may be the best designed course in the country...I'm not talking about some day with my dad in the sun...I'm talking about a legit number one course.

Mathew,

I have also said in the past that I would not talk to children on the internet.  This is not a rating thread - It is an opinion piece.

A Rating is an opinion piece.

[Mark Pearce]

I for one hearby pledge not to post on any rating thread...who is with me.

Based on my recent experience during a one day visit under perfect conditions I believe that The Riviera CC has a legit shot at being the best course in the country that day at that time.  As you know, courses have personalities much like us in that some days they are tired and other days on top of their game.  I was lucky enough to find Riviera at the top of her game with 60 deg temps, a three club wind, fast and firm turf, no one in front or behind us, celebrity sightings, as good a caddy as I have ever seen and a great host who knew and was kind enought to explain to me the architectural and social history of the club.  I hit a couple of shots as good as ever hit in the history of the club and some as bad as ever imagined...so the play was fine to boot.  That being said, under perfect conditions such as the above how many and what courses have a legit shot at being number one.

note:  This is the danger of only playing a course once as some days are just too good to be true.

note note:  I have heard that other well qualified individuals have said that Riviera may be the best designed course in the country...I'm not talking about some day with my dad in the sun...I'm talking about a legit number one course.

Mathew,

I have also said in the past that I would not talk to children on the internet.  This is not a rating thread - It is an opinion piece.

Indeed.  An opinion piece based entirely on the credibility of ratings and the concept perpetrated by them that there is, indeed, a number one.

[Tom Huckaby]

I'll take a shot at answering JK's question.

In an oft-described conversation held at one of these great courses, Gene Greco and I each came up with a "greatest courses in the world" list numbering 15 or so... and our lists of these 15 were pretty much the same; that is, the internal rankings differed a bit, but the 15 courses named were pretty much the same.  We posited at the time that any of these 15 courses could be #1 on any given day, or looked at as #1 by any right-minded person.

They were the usual subjects... although I don't think Riviera made either list... interesting.  I'm sure it belongs.

What strikes me now though is that the true greatest greatest wouldn't need a perfect day to provide fun.  Perhaps that's one thing that separates these courses at the top?

BTW, I too want to hear all the details re your now-famous shot on 10.  But primarily I need to know where the pin was... if you damn near holed out to a back right pin, oh man that is epic... front left is still great, but at least in the realm of imagination.

 

[John Kavanaugh]

The 10th

I'm thrilled to see the pin on the tournament green in the front left center.  I'm curious why my host says that we can hit some extra balls off of the tee.  I don't think he saw history making in my swing from the previous nine holes.  I'm thinking of all the times I have given people crap for stealing shots by hitting mulitiple balls and realize that without insulting my host I'm going to have to take one shot and live with it.  We were alone on the tee as we waited for the group ahead to vacate the soon occupied green.   A three club wind is at our backs taking lay up out of the question.  My host, as pure a ball striker as he is generous, hits his typically beautiful ball of fine tajectory and flight which makes a bee line for the pin only to be struck dead by a slight fade on the end.  His hole is done.  My only swing thought is to make contact and see where it takes me.  The ball starts out low and stays that way as it makes its way towards the right edge of the left front bunker.  Our caddie begs for a fade as my ball disappears into a shadow on its historical treck.  A sense of relief overcomes me as my host doesn't insist on me hitting another ball as it appears I have hit a shot adequate to get a feel for the hole.  The excitement starts as we get what must have been 70 yds from the hole but felt like 700 when the caddie exclaims in a sense of wonderment that my ball is on the green near the hole.  Instantly the weight of history starts the long climb from my legs through my hands up squarely onto my shoulders.  I've got a chance to make two on the 10th at Riviera.  My friends will love me, women will want to be me, children will drop rose peddles on my path home later in the week.  I'm in LA and the world is mine.  It is a simple twelve foot putt staight up the hill with a slight right to left break.  The greens are rolling a receptive nine.  Even the wind stops to watch.  My host was kind enough to give me my putt for par.

I think it can be confirmed that I walked to the 11th tee with all the courage of a dictator at the gallows.  Funny thing about when history presents its self to you and you fail to get what want but get what you need best.   I don't know that I could have lived with myself if I had made that duece and I'm sure my friends couldn't have.

[JESII]

Priceless...

Been there (not there) myself more than once.

[Tom Huckaby]

The 10th

I'm thrilled to see the pin on the tournament green in the front left center.  I'm curious why my host says that we can hit some extra balls off of the tee.  I don't think he saw history making in my swing from the previous nine holes.  I'm thinking of all the times I have given people crap for stealing shots by hitting mulitiple balls and realize that without insulting my host I'm going to have to take one shot and live with it.  We were alone on the tee as we waited for the group ahead to vacate the soon occupied green.   A three club wind is at our backs taking lay up out of the question.  My host, as pure a ball striker as he is generous, hits his typically beautiful ball of fine tajectory and flight which makes a bee line for the pin only to be struck dead by a slight fade on the end.  His hole is done.  My only swing thought is to make contact and see where it takes me.  The ball starts out low and stays that way as it makes its way towards the right edge of the left front bunker.  Our caddie begs for a fade as my ball disappears into a shadow on its historical treck.  A sense of relief overcomes me as my host doesn't insist on me hitting another ball as it appears I have hit a shot adequate to get a feel for the hole.  The excitement starts as we get what must have been 70 yds from the hole but felt like 700 when the caddie exclaims in a sense of wonderment that my ball is on the green near the hole.  Instantly the weight of history starts the long climb from my legs through my hands up squarely onto my shoulders.  I've got a chance to make two on the 10th at Riviera.  My friends will love me, women will want to be me, children will drop rose peddles on my path home later in the week.  I'm in LA and the world is mine.  It is a simple twelve foot putt staight up the hill with a slight right to left break.  The greens are rolling a receptive nine.  Even the wind stops to watch.  My host was kind enough to give me my putt for par.

I think it can be confirmed that I walked to the 11th tee with all the courage of a dictator at the gallows.  Funny thing about when history presents its self to you and you fail to get what want but get what you need best.   I don't know that I could have lived with myself if I had made that duece and I'm sure my friends couldn't have.

Just in case you feel some need to delete that - and I have no idea why you ever would - well, now it won't help.

THAT WAS ABSOLUTELY CLASSIC, POST OF THE YOUNG YEAR WITHOUT A DOUBT.

I laughed, I cried, I didn't have to wave my ten bucks goodbye...

Seriously, that was really, really fun reading.  Many thanks, JK.

And you're right, in the end, the deuce there would have been impossible to live down, or live up to.  You're better off.

 

TH

ps - what's funny is the reports were you knocked it to 6 inches.... now if you missed twice from there, well I suggest you read the "Yips" thread going on right now.  

[Michael Robin]

JK - Beautifully and factually told. Now, how about the flop shot on 6? This was pure guts and brilliance.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Sadly, I will also always prefer playing a private with a member to playing a public like Pinehurst.

John,

Can Riviera be number 1 if it is a public course under the Kavanaugh definition? They do have unescorted play.

[rjsimper]

"even the wind stopped to watch"

As a Middlebury College English major, I applaud the mastery of prose displayed in this single exceptional line.

[John Kavanaugh]

Sadly, I will also always prefer playing a private with a member to playing a public like Pinehurst.

John,

Can Riviera be number 1 if it is a public course under the Kavanaugh definition? They do have unescorted play.

One of the purposes of this thread is to point out that every course has its problems.  I think you are correct that Riviera has unescorted play and that could pose a problem at a given time on a certain day.  That time and day was not when I was there.  

I would belive that on any given day Shinnecock might be number one in the moring and NGLA number one in the afternoon...There are thousands of criteria and unaccompanied play is just one.  It is simply a tie breaker.

[Mike_Sweeney]

I'll take a shot at answering JK's question.

In an oft-described conversation held at one of these great courses, Gene Greco and I each came up with a "greatest courses in the world" list numbering 15 or so...

I further refined this list with Dr Gene. He did not agree with me on all of them, but Merion and a few others got tossed. Basically I see it as National vs. Pine Valley vs Cypress Point vs Pebble Beach, but I have not played Oakmont, Prairie Dunes or Augusta. Yes I am a defender of Pebble Beach, the great holes there are too great to throw it under the bus for a few "only good" holes.

[John Kavanaugh]

JK - Beautifully and factually told. Now, how about the flop shot on 6? This was pure guts and brilliance.

Michael,

I will say that the sixth green proves to me that just because someone has watched a course on TV or even seen a tournament in person that you can not get a feel for the true sense of the architecture until you have played the hole yourself.  I spent nine days on the road and covered 2500 miles through some of the great cities in the world and somehow found myself on the sixth of Riviera with a bunker in the middle of the green between myself and the pin.  I was lucky enough to be a few feet off of the green which gave me the option of the flop shot.  It was neither guts nor brilliance to choose to attempt the monster flop because as you know I was no longer protecting my score.  Come to think of it, I may have had a helping wind into my face for the shot.    It took guts and brilliance to design and build the sixth and then it took only opportunity and luck for me to get the chance to execute.  Thank you for that.

[Tom Huckaby]

I'll take a shot at answering JK's question.

In an oft-described conversation held at one of these great courses, Gene Greco and I each came up with a "greatest courses in the world" list numbering 15 or so...

I further refined this list with Dr Gene. He did not agree with me on all of them, but Merion and a few others got tossed. Basically I see it as National vs. Pine Valley vs Cypress Point vs Pebble Beach, but I have not played Oakmont, Prairie Dunes or Augusta. Yes I am a defender of Pebble Beach, the great holes there are too great to throw it under the bus for a few good holes.

I can dig all that, as my sixties flower child uncle is wont to say.  Especially the Pebble beach part.

BUT... and I'm guessing this might be where the disagreement with Dr. Gene might come in.... no room for Sand Hills?

BTW JK - nice shot on 6.  I haven't played the course in 20+ years, but that hole does still stand out in memory... if only because a HS competitor once did the same shot as you, except from a few feet ON the green.  I nearly died.  But huge divot out of the green....

TH

[David Stamm]

John, you have to tell what said wind required you to hit to the 13th at Rustic. It giveth and taketh away.

[George Pazin]

Who guessed JakaB's question and is now posting under his name?

[Mike_Sweeney]

BUT... and I'm guessing this might be where the disagreement with Dr. Gene might come in.... no room for Sand Hills?

Forgot that one, so add it to my list. The controversy was over Merion.