[Steve Burrows]

In an 1863 essay entitled, "Walking," Henry David Thoreau wrote the following:

“At present, in this vicinity, the best part of the land is not private property; the landscape is not owned, and the walker enjoys comparative freedom. But possibly the day will come when it will be partitioned off into so-called pleasure grounds, in which a few will take a narrow and exclusive pleasure only,--when fences shall be multiplied, and man-traps and other engines invented to confine man to the public road, and walking over the surface of God’s earth shall be construed to mean trespassing on some gentleman’s grounds.  To enjoy a thing exclusively is commonly to exclude yourself from the true enjoyment of it.  Let us improve our opportunities, then, before the evil days come.”

It would be folly to suggest that he was talking about golf course design (I would be surprised if evidence could be found to say he had ever even heard of the game), but, conversely, it is naive to think that designers can't learn at least something about their profession from such an ostensibly unrelated individual.  

Thoreau is talking about having the opportunity to choose for himself a route through the woods, about having options, and not having his route dictated to him by another.  He believes that the route he chooses exists for his enjoyment, and, should it better suit them, others can choose their own route to achieve an end.  In a sense, he is describing the strategic school of golf course design.  Agree?  Disagree?

This is a big world, friends.  No human endeavor can exist in isolation from the rest of the world, and lessons, even if they must be abstracted, can come from anywhere, including such distant sources as Thoreau.  What else might we learn from him?  From others FAR outside the profession?

[Troy Alderson]

In an 1863 essay entitled, "Walking," Henry David Thoreau wrote the following:

“At present, in this vicinity, the best part of the land is not private property; the landscape is not owned, and the walker enjoys comparative freedom. But possibly the day will come when it will be partitioned off into so-called pleasure grounds, in which a few will take a narrow and exclusive pleasure only,--when fences shall be multiplied, and man-traps and other engines invented to confine man to the public road, and walking over the surface of God’s earth shall be construed to mean trespassing on some gentleman’s grounds.  To enjoy a thing exclusively is commonly to exclude yourself from the true enjoyment of it.  Let us improve our opportunities, then, before the evil days come.”

It would be folly to suggest that he was talking about golf course design (I would be surprised if evidence could be found to say he had ever even heard of the game), but, conversely, it is naive to think that designers can't learn at least something about their profession from such an ostensibly unrelated individual.  

Thoreau is talking about having the opportunity to choose for himself a route through the woods, about having options, and not having his route dictated to him by another.  He believes that the route he chooses exists for his enjoyment, and, should it better suit them, others can choose their own route to achieve an end.  In a sense, he is describing the strategic school of golf course design.  Agree?  Disagree?

This is a big world, friends.  No human endeavor can exist in isolation from the rest of the world, and lessons, even if they must be abstracted, can come from anywhere, including such distant sources as Thoreau.  What else might we learn from him?  From others FAR outside the profession?

Steve,

Just from your guote, I do not agree with your explanation of Thoreau, though that may be what you got out of it.  He is talking about the destruction of nature by human beings and the fencing off of mother nature.  Unfortunately, that is the bitter end.  With that end we will not have the freedom to roam about.  Golf design can allow the general public to enjoy nature and roam about, though not unspoiled nature. Indirectly, Thoreau could be referencing golf design and designers can take that from his writings, but that is taking his words out of context.  He is talking about what progress will do to the wilderness as we encroach upon it.  If golf design flowed with nature to the extreme without interference from man then maybe golf would have a good image with the far left of politics.  Many architects come very close.  TOC comes the closest IMHO.  Anyone I have talked to that has played TOC, may have missed the golf course thinking that it was not there.  Is that the ideal?  Blending the golf course in with mother nature that nobody notices.

Welcome newbie.

Troy

[Steve Burrows]

Of course I am taking his words out of context, but that does not diminish their value to a discussion of golf courses.  Design inspiration is infinite.

[Bill Shamleffer]

Steve,

I believe you are correct that Thoreau's writings have something to offer to golf course architecture.  The most enjoyable courses are those that can be played via a variety of routes and strategies.  Courses that limit one’s options can become stale over a few playings.

In addition to these observations, also take notice of the importance of just walking to Thoreau.  In reading Thoreau's writing, one will see how the golf cart limits the experience and enjoyment of a round of golf.  This does not mean that carts should not exist.  However, one should realize the tradeoff being made when a cart is used, and if this tradeoff is desirable for that specific instance.

Of course, I will not even touch what Thoreau would think of the fact that you and I can not take a stroll around the grounds of Cypress Point, just to enjoy the wonderful walking experience that land can offer.  Nor will I mention the fence surrounding that piece of land in Augusta.

[TEPaul]

"This is a big world, friends.  No human endeavor can exist in isolation from the rest of the world, and lessons, even if they must be abstracted, can come from anywhere, including such distant sources as Thoreau.  What else might we learn from him?  From others FAR outside the profession?"

Steve:

Very cool analogy even if it may be something of a stretch. I like it a lot in relation to something like Behr's "Lines of Charm" or strategic golf architecture.

What else could we learn from Thoreau that might be applied to golf or architecture?

Oh, I guess we could learn that if he was allowed to be the czar of golf he would probably eliminate private clubs altogether or just force them open to the public.

Many think of Thoreau in his best known "Waldon Pond" context as a guy who decided to sort of drop out and go commune with Nature alone, but many may not know he was also a huge advocate of civil disobedience which with his sensibilities evidenced in your quote above would probably mean he was an out-and-out communist or at least a socialist. He most certainly was an iconoclast and/or a revolutionary thinker.

As an analogy from far elsewhere that relates well to real strategic golf or "lines of charm" of perhaps a naturalistic type, I've always liked the analogy of the old Scottish song whose verse goes;

"You take the low road and I'll take the high road
and I'll be in Scotland before Ye"

[Bill Shamleffer]

Oh, I guess we could learn that if he was allowed to be the czar of golf he would probably eliminate private clubs altogether or just force them open to the public.

Many think of Thoreau in his best known "Waldon Pond" context as a guy who decided to sort of drop out and go commune with Nature alone, but many may not know he was also a huge advocate of civil disobedience which with his sensibilities evidenced in your quote above would probably mean he was an out-and-out communist or at least a socialist. He most certainly was an iconoclast and/or a revolutionary thinker.

TEPaul,

I assume you were joking.  Although I do agree that Thoreau would most likely not have approved of the abundance of private clubs (nor the use of fertilizers, non-native grasses, or over watering), I do not see how this would lead to communism.  You will recall that there have been many theories and attempts at utopian societies and at adjusting wealth distribution.  However, Thoreau was not nearly as interested in changing governments as he was at changing the outlooks of individuals.  In addition, his civil disobediences went along with a strong belief in civil liberties that would not have fit well at all with later writings on communism.

If Thoreau had taken a liking to golf (which is difficult to imagine, but you never know), he likely would have been more appreciative of the Scottish and Irish approaches.  Less private clubs, more public access to clubs, which are private, more use of the terrain as it is found, more acceptance of allowing the course conditions to be dictated by current weather conditions.

Finally, to add a little more humor to this analogy, if Thoreau were to be around today and to have been bitten by the golf bug, what sort of "civil disobedience" would he inflict upon the USGA.

[BCrosby]

Bill -

I think TEP was being just a teansy bit facetious.

If Thoreau were around today and if, gun to head, he was asked to design a golf course, he would be Bill Coore.

Bob

[TEPaul]

I'm sorry Bill, it is probably wrong to say Thoreau would have been a communist. I guess I picked the wrong "ist" or "ism".

I think it would be safe to say that if he was around today he would've been a sublime nature-based "anarchist".  

Or failing that he would've painted his face red and acted the part of the American Indian who exhibited an almost complete ATONEMENT with Nature, and where and in which culture the very idea of owning land was not a human possibility.  

[TEPaul]

"If Thoreau were around today and if, gun to head, he was asked to design a golf course, he would be Bill Coore."

Bobzee:

I think you're right about that. Thoreau would've been Bill Coore if he was around today and an architect and Bill would've been Thoreau if he lived back then.

I'll tell you a story in that vein that proofs it..

First of all Bill Coore's modus operandi on potential sites for golf is to walk and walk and walk and walk, and when that's done to walk some more. He calls it going on "golf walks".

One time we spent about a week on one piece of property (Ardrossan Farm) that was an incredibly beautiful old Olmsted landcape planned massive estate of the English "park" or parkliand type in Villanova.

The representative of the owner told us where he felt we could and couldn't go to find golf holes and Bill Coore sort of listened to that blankly without saying a word.

But it was pretty obvious where we weren't supposed to go.

So early the next morning I showed up and Bill was out there somewhere but I couldn't find him. So I called him on the cell phone and asked him where he was and he said he was over on a corner of the property on a beautiful ridge with a white house down below it. I knew where that was so I walked way over there and there he was hunkered down just taking it all in.

I said: "Bill, this is an area we're not supposed to be in to look for a routing, didn't you understand that?"

But he said: "Sure I understood that but this looks real great for a golf hole, don't you think?"

That's Bill Coore and I have no doubt Thoreau may've said the same thing.  

[Steve Burrows]

TEPaul,

Excellent anecdote about Bill Coore.

Now, let's take it a step further.  Is it possible to design a golf hole, or even an entire course, that provides for the player that same sense of illicit adventure and wonderment?  

[Bill_McBride]

There is a great deal of difference between golf in the USA and golf in the UK.  One difference is that UK golf courses are built on "common ground," owned by the jurisdiction and available for all to use for recreation including but not restricted to golf.

One of the charms of Painswick Golf Club is waiting for a group of hikers to cross in front of the tee, or greeting a dog walker strolling down the fairway.

This is something you'd never see in the USA, and it's too bad, it's very charming in the UK.

I really think that's what Thoreau was getting at.

[BCrosby]

Bill -

I think that's right. Thoreau might even find the concept of "holes" too  constraining. It would be a very hard golf course to rate.

Bob

[TEPaul]

"Is it possible to design a golf hole, or even an entire course, that provides for the player that same sense of illicit adventure and wonderment?"

Steve Burrows:

That's a great question, perhaps even an ideal question or at least a great question about an ideal.

I think it would be possible, and in my opinion, to accomplish something like that in architecture really would be ideal or THE ideal.

Adventure and wonderment would be sufficient for my taste in architecture but I'm pretty fascinated by this inclusion of the description 'illicit'. That's definitely worth some ponderment

I don't know where you've come from, Pal, but I like your take on things a lot. Very fine first thread post on here---very interesting subject.

Now look, since you are here, there are a few basic rules or proper ways to do things on this site as far as I'm concerned, and one of them is at no time at all---NO TIME--is it a good idea to side with this idiot Tom MacWood or that airhead Patrick Mucci against me or anything I say on here.

Welcome to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com where everyday is like a barroom brawl on Friday night in Dodge City.

[Bill_McBride]

"Is it possible to design a golf hole, or even an entire course, that provides for the player that same sense of illicit adventure and wonderment?"

Steve Burrows:

That's a great question, perhaps even an ideal question or at least a great question about an ideal.

I think it would be possible, and in my opinion, to accomplish something like that in architecture really would be ideal or THE ideal.

Adventure and wonderment would be sufficient for my taste in architecture but I'm pretty fascinated by this inclusion of the description 'illicit'. That's definitely worth some ponderment

I don't know where you've come from, Pal, but I like your take on things a lot. Very fine first thread post on here---very interesting subject.

Now look, since you are here, there are a few basic rules or proper way to do things on this site as far as I'm concerned. At no time at all---NO TIME--is it a good idea to side with this idiot Tom MacWood or that airhead Patrick Mucci against me or anything I say on here.

Welcome to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com where everyday is like a barroom brawl on Friday night in Dodge City.

Luckily no one's armed!  At least as far as I'm aware!  

[TEPaul]

Billy Boy,

When on GOFLCLUBATLAS.com, just like in a barroom in Dodge City on a Friday night it probably ain't a great idea to walk and talk with your hands in your pockets, if you know what I mean. You never know when you might need 'em.  

That's the first thing the great Tommy Armour said to me when I first met him when I was a kid. He said;

"Son, I like your name, but if I were you I'd take those hands out of your pockets---you never know when you might need them."

[Troy Alderson]

Steve,

If Thoreau were to design a golf course the layout would be vary random without any designated route to follow.  Much like the sheep ranch is.  Also, the turf would be grazed strictly, no machines.  No fertilizer nor water would be used other than what mother nature supplied.  The course would be little more than pasture with people walking around knocking a ball around.  Oh, the ball would not be a ball but a resin coated pine cone or other roundish item found on the ground.

I better be careful, I am started to like this natural golf course by Thoreau.  Anyone ever thought of walking through a field with a club and ball, knocking it around?

Taking a little of this with what we have now in design and golf can become very public friendly and still very enjoyable.

Troy

[TEPaul]

".......vary random......."

Troy:

I'd call that a most appropriate typo.  

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