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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Sacred Cows
« on: July 12, 2006, 05:50:03 PM »
I almost started a brawl the other day when I said something about Sand Hills here that was not 110% positive.  And there's another active thread where Mr. Rigo is about to be lynched for writing heresies about Fishers Island.

What are the other sacred cows of GCA?

I ask because we might as well put them on a list and declare them off-limits to criticism, and spend our time discussing other courses which are not beyond argument.
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Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2006, 05:53:38 PM »
National Golf Links of America and Pacific Dunes.  The 10th at Riviera.
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Matt_Ward

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2006, 06:01:27 PM »
Tom D:

Since you asked it -- a Tom Doak designed course. ;D

Few here will venture a straightforward opinion because of the TNT it causes. I, on the other hand, have ventured into plenty of sacred cow areas and still possess my ten fingers -- hoops I just counted them again and have only nine. ;D
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Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2006, 06:02:28 PM »
Royal Dornoch, North Berwick, St. Andrews Old.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 06:03:35 PM by Tim Pitner »
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Geoffrey Childs

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2006, 06:03:41 PM »
"Restoration Quality" aka

Bethpage Black

Engineers CC

Yeamans Hall

Hollywood

Aronimink



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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2006, 06:10:48 PM »
The good news about a brawl on GCA is that it's a virtual brawl, you're not actually going to get punched in the nose!  ;)   For that reason I don't think any course should be considered a sacred cow or completely off limits.

Unless maybe the back nine at Pasatiempo... 8)
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Andy Troeger

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2006, 06:18:14 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on July 12, 2006, 05:50:03 PM
I almost started a brawl the other day when I said something about Sand Hills here that was not 110% positive.  And there's another active thread where Mr. Rigo is about to be lynched for writing heresies about Fishers Island.

What are the other sacred cows of GCA?

I ask because we might as well put them on a list and declare them off-limits to criticism, and spend our time discussing other courses which are not beyond argument.

Longaberger!  ;D
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Shane Gurnett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2006, 06:21:12 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on July 12, 2006, 05:50:03 PM

What are the other sacred cows of GCA?


Tom Doak?
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tonyt

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2006, 06:25:03 PM »
Tom,

It is an unfortunate but necessary bi-product of greatness that many will take a stance that something is sacred. This is not a bad thing, since the lack of anything sacred after multiple applications of human nature can only be the result of there being no greatness for someone or a collective to blindly defend.

That there be such places on earth worthy of these tunnel visioned subjective defences is a fact to be lauded.

Cliches about anything in life are tired and boring, but some of them did many many years of hard yards and long term earning of respect and being tested over time to become accurate cliches in the first place.
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2006, 06:25:58 PM »
The Stonewall Logo.....

« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 06:28:31 PM by Tommy Naccarato »
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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2006, 06:31:19 PM »
I thought it was only in Texas that the cows are scared..... :P

There's plenty of sacred cows on here, and the only way one can dare discuss is if they have played many times and know the courses intimitely.

Joe
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Gary Daughters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2006, 06:42:55 PM »

Firm and fast

The reverse Jans

Ran Morrissett
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Jordan Wall

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2006, 06:43:23 PM »
Sheep Ranch
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2006, 06:45:17 PM »
Quote from: Jordan Wall on July 12, 2006, 06:43:23 PM
Sheep Ranch

Actually, Jordan, those are "sacred sheep" at the Sheep Ranch.   ::)

Looks like I will be spending a little time out there next Wednesday afternoon.  
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2006, 06:47:50 PM »
GCA views all coures similarly.....

99% of those built pre 1935 are sacred cows....

99% of those built post 1960 are cow pies....

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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2006, 06:57:03 PM »
I agree with many of these but I like Tommy's answer best.  It's certainly the best cow logo out there, although Rock Creek's will be a close second ... a cow skull.

I don't need any of my courses to be sacred cows, because I'm available to answer questions about them (as I have in the past).  And I'm fine with people criticizing them as long as they get their facts straight.

Bill M:  If the back nine at Pasatiempo is sacred, how come they still want us to do work on 16, 17 and 18?
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Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2006, 07:01:12 PM »
I don't think we really have any 'sacred cows' in Australia. Royal Melbourne (West) would come close, but there are plenty of people wanting to say it's too short & irrelevant. I think it's perfect just the way it is, but Australians love to tear down people & things, so the 'sacred cows' fall to the 'tall poppy' syndrome in Australia.
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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2006, 07:13:45 PM »
I think this might be my first time disagreeing with Tom! Hope they don't take away my DBB card.

I don't think people were unfair to Joe Rigo, on either the Fisher's Island review or the other thread, nor do I think anyone is making the case that FI is above any criticism. When you make brash, over the top statements, dismissals and insults, you shouldn't be surprised when others take the same tact with you.

Tom, my recollection of The Confidential Guide... is that you gave FI a 7. I think you said something about there being few other places you might rather spend a day, but the implication was it was more the setting and experience than the perfection of the course. Yet, no one came on here and ripped you for your views.

Mr. Rigo's prose doesn't exactly evoke the memory of Darwin, nor were his comments as insightful architecturally as many of the reviews posters on here offer quite frequently.

And calling out the maintenance practices at FI shows a lot of what Mr. Rigo is looking for, imho.

There is a lot of terrific discussion of this site of FI, for anyone who cares to search for it. All of it is a lot more of the type of discussion we are seeking here, as opposed to reviews like Mr. Rigo's, imho.

I don't think there are any sacred cows on here, but I also think that if someone is going to make strong statements, they should be prepared to back them up, and not be surprised when people take umbrage.
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Geoffrey Childs

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2006, 07:22:12 PM »
Quote from: George Pazin on July 12, 2006, 07:13:45 PM
I think this might be my first time disagreeing with Tom! Hope they don't take away my DBB card.

I don't think people were unfair to Joe Rigo, on either the Fisher's Island review or the other thread, nor do I think anyone is making the case that FI is above any criticism. When you make brash, over the top statements, dismissals and insults, you shouldn't be surprised when others take the same tact with you.

Tom, my recollection of The Confidential Guide... is that you gave FI a 7. I think you said something about there being few other places you might rather spend a day, but the implication was it was more the setting and experience than the perfection of the course. Yet, no one came on here and ripped you for your views.

Mr. Rigo's prose doesn't exactly evoke the memory of Darwin, nor were his comments as insightful architecturally as many of the reviews posters on here offer quite frequently.

And calling out the maintenance practices at FI shows a lot of what Mr. Rigo is looking for, imho.

There is a lot of terrific discussion of this site of FI, for anyone who cares to search for it. All of it is a lot more of the type of discussion we are seeking here, as opposed to reviews like Mr. Rigo's, imho.

I don't think there are any sacred cows on here, but I also think that if someone is going to make strong statements, they should be prepared to back them up, and not be surprised when people take umbrage.

Well said George-  

When the data is there to dissect then the discussions here are at their best.  When brash statements are made without bothering to back them up then as you said - people will take umbrage.
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Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2006, 07:27:11 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on July 12, 2006, 05:50:03 PM
I ask because we might as well put them on a list and declare them off-limits to criticism, and spend our time discussing other courses which are not beyond argument.

Please add Rustic Canyon to the list.

Carlyle
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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2006, 07:27:58 PM »
Tom,
I think there are many forms of sacred cows on here.  Whether it be courses , architects, posters or.....  The one that bugs me the most is the Dead guy associations such as DRS.  So many posters are afraid of these things and give them credibility.... one of the biggest sacred cows on here is Walking....not that I disagree.....
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"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2006, 07:35:27 PM »
Would The Bridge count?  ;D ;)

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
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Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2006, 07:36:17 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on July 12, 2006, 06:57:03 PM
Bill M:  If the back nine at Pasatiempo is sacred, how come they still want us to do work on 16, 17 and 18?

Tom, I assume the work you're going to do is taking some of the steep contours out of the greens and restoring the bunkers, right?

Don't you think setting the mowers to hold the Stimpmeter under 10 would take care of the greens and restore most of the 'lost' pin locations?  We've had that discussion a lot on this discussion board, most recently the dust up about Engineers and the flattening of those greens.

The bunkers didn't look bad last time around, maybe that's not part of your scope.  What ARE you doing there?

#10 is certainly a more wonderful place than 10 years ago!

If it's your favorite nine holes in the world (as it is mine), you can overlook a few warts.  Which is why there are no sacred cows IMHO.
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2006, 07:42:54 PM »
Carlyle, how can Rustic Canyon be a sacred cow when it gets rerouted every time there's a serious flood?!  ???  One thing about sacred cows is they have to be timeless and frozen in a time warp.

Mike Young, you and I are Southernors and therefore know there is a time to walk and a time to ride..... :P  Right now is the time to ride, it was 95 degrees today and maybe 80% humidity.  Jeez.  All the sacred cows were lying in the shade with their tongues hanging out.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2006, 07:49:19 PM »
Quote from: Phil Benedict on July 12, 2006, 05:53:38 PM

National Golf Links of America and Pacific Dunes.  The 10th at Riviera.


Phil,

I don't think NGLA is a sacred cow.

That criticism is rare may be a testament to the genius of it's design.

Several years ago there was some heated debate about the direction in which NGLA was moving.   Criticism was launched from the West Coast with respect to a number of issues, and a passionate debate begun.

Recently TEPaul criticized the expansion of the 13th green and we engaged in a passionate debate on that subject.

I'm convinced that another tee existed behind or to the left of the 11th green, thus making the 13th at NLGA play like the 7th at TOC, whereas, from the current tee, the 13th plays like the 11th at TOC.

A year or two previous I was critical of proposed or discussed changes with respect to the 16th green.

If someone has a criticism of NGLA, I'd like to hear it.

With respect to Pacific Dunes I brought up several issues a few years ago.

Perhaps PD is another example where the golf course doesn't provide much in the way of substance for criticism.

 
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