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JakaB

Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« on: September 29, 2004, 04:28:32 PM »
One noble and aotd gifted ranker just admitted that in his travels through the sand hills that he played by his own...at least I can only hope it is his own...local rule of playing lost balls as lateral hazards.   Is it possible to understand an architects intent in the use of rough vs fairway or rough vs bunker or rough vs water if you ignore the rules of golf.   Do people who critique courses owe those of us who respect the game and the architects who design courses for the game the simple task of playing by the rules.....or does it just not matter anymore..

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2004, 04:32:59 PM »
John,

Who does the gifted AOTD guy rate for?
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Gary_Nelson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2004, 04:34:30 PM »
Lost balls as lateral hazard?!?   Most of my friends don't really care about stroke and distance aspect.  They play the ball where they think it should have landed with a one shot penalty.

I play the second (provisional) ball from the tee and take the full penalty.  We aren't playing for money so I don't care if they cheat.

What's cheating got to do with appreciating architecture?   The cheaters still recognize the bunkers, trees and ponds.  Am I missing something here?

JakaB

Re:Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2004, 04:36:45 PM »
David,

The point of this thread was not to include only those who rate for magazines but people like me who may spout off about a given course they enjoy playing.   If I had to hazard a guess I would lay 8 to 5 it is Golfweek...but that is imaterial to me..

JakaB

Re:Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2004, 04:38:48 PM »
Gary,

Lose 4 or 5 balls in a round to a stroke and distance penalty and then tell me it doesn't have anything to do with architecture.   I'll tell you a little secret....sometimes I hit two ball in the gunch...that's four strokes, not one..

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2004, 04:46:49 PM »
     This can't be serious.  The guy who hits it OB and drops one instead of hitting a second knows what he did.  What difference does it make whether he shot an 83, 85 or an 88 when he assesses the course's architecture?  He played the holes, experienced the course, and formed an opinion.  This is way over the top analysis.  We've got to do better than this.

Gary_Nelson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2004, 04:47:37 PM »
John,

Isn't score different than architecture/ratings?  Aren't there some folks who rate courses when walking and not playinig?

I'm not sure I buy into the idea that cheating has a direct impact on a course rating.

Four or five lost balls will still have an impact on the rater in terms of his impression that the course was severe.  Are you saying that adding distance penalties will make the rater's opinion even more severe?

THuckaby2

Re:Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2004, 05:14:38 PM »
We've had discussions about this before, though not in the rating context.  That is, about strictly playing by the rules, 100% of the time.  It still amazes - and impresses - me that there are participants here who do that, and find it natural.  I gather John K. is one.  My experience out in the "real" world is that I don't know a single other person who doesn't take liberties from time to time.  Not in competitive play, obviously, but in casual play.  The concept of dropping and just playing everything as a lateral is so normal to everyone else I know that they are often shocked when I tell them that really isn't playing by the rules.  

So John, I'm gonna admit also that I myself sometimes play this way.  Of course I surely don't if there is any form of competition involved.  But outside of that, hell yes I'm gonna drop one and move on rather than march back to the tee.  And shhhh! Don't tell anyone but sometimes I give myself putts, too!  

And in rounds in which I am evaluating a course for rating purposes, I break the rules even MORE!  I routinely hit extra shots, drop balls and try different chips, putt balls from all over a green, etc.  Man if I was to add up the penalty strokes for rounds like these I doubt I'd break 120.  Doesn't seem to matter much as I don't tend to keep score if I am doing a rating, but still...count me as one who's a poor evaluator of design, for this reason.   ;D

I know you're just trying to tweak Scott about this - and well done there!  But still, it was too good NOT to answer.

TH

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2004, 05:32:22 PM »
If we had evey one of our guests playing by all of the rules of golf, with stroke and distance penalties, we would have 6.5 hour rounds.  This is what we focus on: Did the customer enjoy themselves, how was our customer service, was the course in proper condition, did the customer score well ( we don't really care how they keep score).

When I look at an acquisition opportunity, I will play multiple shots to see how holes play for various abilities.  WE have a foursome, each with a diiferent handicap play and rate holes.  I also bring my wife (if possible) to see how it sets up for our female guests.

Just my two cents.

rgkeller

Re:Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2004, 05:40:40 PM »
Evidently, among the other lost arts, the playing of a provisional is lost as well.

JakaB

Re:Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2004, 05:43:09 PM »
This is a serious topic....I would hope Sand Hills and Wild Horse are better designs than needing fantasy red stakes along the rough lines......My point is that if an architect designs rough lines that intrude on play the rater or casual observer is not going to feel the full brunt of the architects ignorance unless they feel the full emotional and numerical effect of a stroke and distance penalty.   Last I checked most designers know where to put red stakes.....and if they don't your opinion should reflect that.

JakaB

Re:Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2004, 05:57:45 PM »
Evidently, among the other lost arts, the playing of a provisional is lost as well.

That says it all.....the art of playing a provisional ball is an intregral part of the game....is there anything more satisfying than salvaging a bogey on a provisional.   I even have a now dead friend that made a birdie with a ball ob...just think of all the years he told that story how he would have been cheated if he cheated...

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2004, 05:59:22 PM »
I played with a rather famous panelist a few years ago who had played the top in the world and the top 100 in the US.  He told me he only plays the course from the middle of the fairway the 1st time he plays a course.  He felt it was the only fair way to evaluate a course.  I sometimes use this advice when I hit the ball way off line.  How can you evaluate a hole if you never see the hole since you are walking far to the side?

DMoriarty

Re:Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2004, 06:17:04 PM »
If we had evey one of our guests playing by all of the rules of golf, with stroke and distance penalties, we would have 6.5 hour rounds.  

This is an extraordinary observation.   What does it say about the state of golf design when golfers cannot play a legal round in less than 6 1/2 hours?  

JakaB

Re:Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2004, 06:18:41 PM »
Joel,

Your friend has seen the top 100 courses, he hasn't played them.   So, when your buddy plays NGLA does he place his ball in the middle of the fairway or at the best angle of attack....I can see how he got to be famous..half ass courses and architects must love the guy.

JakaB

Re:Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2004, 06:22:40 PM »
If we had evey one of our guests playing by all of the rules of golf, with stroke and distance penalties, we would have 6.5 hour rounds.  

This is an extraordinary observation.   What does it say about the state of golf design when golfers cannot play a legal round in less than 6 1/2 hours?  

David,

I was thinking about you and your jousting of width and options this very minute.   No wonder you fight this battle alone when people who hit wayward shots on optionless stupid tight courses simply cheat.   Save money and grow the rough I say....no one but David will notice..

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2004, 06:23:54 PM »
Of course you can rate a course if you don't play by the rules - you might not be able to say "Hey, I shot 73 at Merion" but you can certainly rate the course.

On the other hand, can a guy who duck hooks a drive into a hazard for a parallel fairway, plays by the rules, hacks it up the other fairway, lobs it on to his green from 60 yards, and 3 putts adequately rate the hole he just played?  Hell no.  If your priority is score, handicap, or competition, play by the rules.  If your priority is rating a course, find the best way it requires for you to do so, and do it...and don't worry about self-righteous idealists like yourself who would probably penalize a good friend because he demo'd a driver from the shop for the day and therefore had 15 clubs in his bag.

DMoriarty

Re:Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2004, 06:30:49 PM »
I played with a rather famous panelist a few years ago who had played the top in the world and the top 100 in the US.  He told me he only plays the course from the middle of the fairway the 1st time he plays a course.  He felt it was the only fair way to evaluate a course.  I sometimes use this advice when I hit the ball way off line.  How can you evaluate a hole if you never see the hole since you are walking far to the side?

I've never played the courses your friend rates and neither has anyone I know.  Why on earth is the middle of the fairway the true path to golf course enlightenment?  

This seems like absurd extension to the ridiculous notion that one must play a course (as opposed to observing the course and play) in order to properly evaluate.  

JakaB

Re:Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2004, 06:33:01 PM »
Ryan,

What if the architect knew the hazard was in play and allowed for a recovery in an adjacent fairway.....and on your last point...my friend who I play the most rounds of golf with often buys a new driver or putter at the turn.....he bought two drivers in 27 holes in the member-guest we played in last weekend....and I changed putters after the first nine hole match.   Of course all was within the rules since each nine hole match was independent.   Sure...we play by the rules the best we know how.....but when he wants to change clubs at the turn I can either let him do it or go home...I choose not to go home.   Email me if you are ever looking for something specific...he has it all and sells it cheap.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2004, 07:16:36 PM by John B. Kavanaugh »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2004, 07:18:15 PM »
Lose 4 or 5 balls in a round to a stroke and distance penalty and then tell me it doesn't have anything to do with architecture.  

John -

I think you have answered your own question and consistant rants on rankings, raters and comps ...

Mike
"... and I liked the guy ..."

JakaB

Re:Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2004, 07:28:41 PM »
Lose 4 or 5 balls in a round to a stroke and distance penalty and then tell me it doesn't have anything to do with architecture.  

John -

I think you have answered your own question and consistant rants on rankings, raters and comps ...

Mike

Please explain....I guess I should have stated the title of this thread in a less rhetorical way......I'm going to go evaluate Cuscowilla in a month or so and now am confused about how I should do it.   Should I place my tee shot in perfect postion to be fair to the architects intent, I doubt it.  Should I cheat and come home with a fantasy score so I feel better about myself and the course, not a bad idea and it may even save some of you people from my rants.....or should I play the course as it was designed and tell my friends what I thought based on my real experience.    I think I owe it to my friends, the people who overhear my opinions and take it with a grain of salt, and the architects to play the course as it lies.   Not lie about how the course plays...

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2004, 07:30:28 PM »
Barney -

You have struck a nerve.

The horrible burden of hitting three or five off the tee is one of the most profound experiences in golf.

When I holed out from the tee this summer at Bald Peak, I had the incredible good fortune to be playing a stipulated round, as the chaps we met on the tee had invited Sweeney and me to play a modest Nassau. I didn't even have my beloved Rangefinder!

Now I am truly cognizant of the importance of playing one ball by the rules.

To paraphrase Fredric Jameson, "Reloading is what hurts, it is what refuses desire . . . "
« Last Edit: September 29, 2004, 08:50:45 PM by Michael Moore »
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

A_Clay_Man

Re:Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2004, 08:42:14 PM »
Since John say this is a serious topic...I'd say the answer is...Only if the analyst is able to evaluate a golf course from a perspective that discounts their own game.


I don't believe Golfweek raters are allowed to that, so it must be another.

Dick Kirkpatrick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2004, 08:42:57 PM »
I think every one on this site could drive all 18 holes of a golf course, from tee to green, stand on the tee, take in the visuals of the hole, inspect the rough and hazards on both sides of all holes, walk on the greens, feel the slopes,check the depths and location of greenside bunkers and know if he or she thought it was a good or bad golf course (rating)
Then they could play the golf course, naturally using all the rules, and I bet their opinion would be the same.

Luckily, Bobby Jones was'nt a rater the first time he played St. Andrews because he hated it. (low rating)
The more he played it the more he loved and respected it(high
rating)

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can you evaluate design if you don't play by the rules...
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2004, 08:49:11 PM »
John Also Known As Barney,

Of course you can.  

FWIW, your ability to make fish literally jump in the boat is amazing.    Bill Dance has nothing on  you.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....