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TEPaul

Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« on: March 12, 2004, 04:28:47 PM »
For those really into studying the details of man-made architecture it's hard to find a better laboratory to study in, in my opinion, than Flynn's Indian Creek.

The course was built on a man-made island in the 1920s which obviously was initially a blank canvas, probably zero elevation change affair and so given that start for Flynn at Indian Creek it's completely possible to see and study every single man-made architectural feature of the course which is essentially the whole thing.

There's one thing or another on a good half or more of the holes there that's worthy of discussion on here, in my opinion.

To think that Toomey and Flynn created that entire gradual hill that the clubhouse sits on up to around 35 feet in that day and age is something to ponder. You want to talk about moving massive amounts of earth that ties in so beautifully one would never suspect a teaspoon was moved----that long running hill would be it.

#13 is in my half a handful of the neatest little par 4s I've ever seen too!

It'd be good to have a discussion about Flynn's concept of the "reverse dogleg" too and how he apparently went about the concept here and there!
« Last Edit: March 12, 2004, 04:30:42 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2004, 07:18:16 PM »
Craig:

Thanks for the photo of #13 Indian Creek. The photo of the little hole skirting around the inlet is neat but nothing compared to walking all over it and the nuancy details of the entire hole such as all the fairway past the green on the right, the contour on various parts of that fairway not to even mention the decision of what kind of line to take off the tee to carry some part of the inlet or not.

The thing I really like about the little hole though is the green itself, how high it's propped up there--(I'm not so sure it's that easy to see the green surface from some approach angles) and particularly how the slope of it (or lack of it) doesn't seem to indicate any particularly favorable line, angle or strategy to the player off the tee except to perhaps get as close to the green as possible for obvious reasons.

Combine all that stuff and the hole looks like it has some real mystery to it---a wonderful thing, in my opinion!

« Last Edit: March 12, 2004, 07:31:01 PM by TEPaul »

wsmorrison

Re:Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2004, 07:26:41 AM »
The fairway widths at Indian Creek are impressive as is the job that Joe Pantaleo, the superintendent, does.  One of the first things you notice upon leaving the clubhouse off the terrace and seeing the practice putting green, the 9th and 18th greens, and the 1st and 10th tees is an expanse of closely cut lawn; in fact, many acres of it.  The entire effect of grand scale and width is carried out throughout the course.  Some of the bunkers are over 100 yards long, for instance along the right side of the great par 5 3rd.  In one of the design iterations Flynn did dated Sep. 25, 1928 it was drawn as more than 180 yards long!  I'll have to see if it was built as to that design.

Tom and I noticed a design tendency of Flynn's that integrates well with the sense of scale and that is to use bunkers on either side of a fairly narrow front opening (a demanding run-up shot is available on most holes) and flaring them out to the sides.  He often had a bunker or two way outside of the flared greenside bunker line.  Sometimes the fairway bunkers 100 yards or so short of the green were placed in such a way so as to look like they connect with the greenside bunkers.  The effect is to fit the large bunkers into the wide scale of the holes.  With the fairways often 50-60 yards wide, the bunkering makes you take it all in, one's eye does not focus down the middle.   Everything is so beautiful , there are a number of fascinating trees, some strategic but not many, that it is by design that the scale and dynamics of the holes make you look around.  Sometimes you're looking around wondering how the heck to play the hole.  The designer not only makes you take it all in, he makes you figure it all out.  

There is a lot of variety at Indian Creek.  There are a number of great short par 4s (13 is simply great and photos--even as good as Craig's don't do it justice), long par 4s, short to long par 3s (12 is sooo good!) and wonderful par 5s.  The course played long for its day and the long par 4 9th and 18th holes played up the 30' climb (imagine that in Dade County) were long par 4s.  .The 14th has a strategic tree on the right hand side at the turn of a dogleg right.  The 17th has an angled treeline from the right that dictates strategy on the tee.  Other than these two holes the trees are really not in play, but beautiful specimens of palm, baobab, and other plantings around the course.

Flynn used framing, with trees, mounds, and bunkers to great use on the course.  We noticed the characteristic pull-ups
on the edges of some greens.   This form of framing adds perspective, contouring, and drainage.

Flynn clearly had a masterly sense of perspective and used the toplines of greenside bunkers to give the impression that the orientation of the bunker is perpendicular to play when in reality the bunker is on a 45 degree angle and the player wonders why he plopped his approach into the bunker rather than on the green.  Tom mentioned that there is a famous hole like that at Seminole.  The angles at IC are superb.  Some of the diagonals of the green edges are truly wonderful  Hopefully Tom will address this in more detail.

Ron Forse's master plan put into effect by Joe Pantaleo called for, among other interesting work, for the removal of a lot of unnecessary trees.  Ron and Joe really liked the shaggy look and grand scale of the bunkers when built--see Geoff Shackelford's book on the Golden Age of Golf pg. 108 to see a photo of the great par 3 12th and the look of the bunkering in the beginning.  Today they are more formalized (maybe Craig can post a picture of today's 12th) with pristeen edging.  The bunkers changed to this look sometime around 1937, less than 10 years after the course opened.

After Indian Creek, Tom Paul and I went over to a muni close by on Normandy Shores also designed by Flynn.  It was in a way like Indian Creek lite with some of the same design elements.  Relatively narrow openings, bunkers flared to the side.  One thing I was able to appreciate after viewing NS was how much more Flynn built up the greens at IC than at NS.  NS showed the level needed to build above flood plane.  IC had higher perched greens, some like 13 10 feet above grade.  This added height was clearly what he wanted from a design perspective.  Imagine hitting to some of those table top skyline greens perched on high with a big fall-off the back.  Misplay the approach, even on short holes and the score climbs quickly.

This is a great golf course.  Like Craig, it is in my top 5 Flynn courses.  If anyone is going to south Florida to play Seminole, Gulf Stream, or other grand old dames of Florida golf, if you have the connections (the club is ultra private and doesn't get a lot of outside play, which they prefer) then you must try to see Indian Creek. Where else in the world can you see a classic era course where the architect designed and built every height and contour on the course?  The Lido was of this design ilk, but it no longer exists.

The Flynn course played about 6650 par 70.  This was a challenging golf course in the late 1920s and remains so today.  The course on the scorecard today plays about 70 yards longer and par 72.  Tom suggested that the club print two scorecards, one with the Flynn length and par for low handicappers and the present set-up for mid to high handicappers.  They thought it a great idea.

The club is very proud of their club and the association with William Flynn.  They were active in the Flynn Invitational and I look forward to a continued relationship of sharing information and an appreciation of the genius of William Flynn.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2004, 07:31:30 AM by wsmorrison »

wsmorrison

Re:Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2004, 07:38:30 AM »
I forgot to mention the fascinating vantage points Flynn built around the golf course.  Maybe I did in an old post.  But could this have been a very early attempt at building spectator golf?  Besides the views from around the beautiful clubhouse, BTW, the nicest locker room I've ever seen, there were 7 vantage points built up around the golf course.

TEPaul

Re:Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2004, 12:09:51 PM »
Craig:

I like that far more rugged or almost lacy grass line look on the old bunkers of Indian Creek shortly after it came into play but the club is not interested in returning to that look, although Joe Pantaleo would be more than happy to go back to that apparently if the club asked him to.

No matter really as the present bunker look of IC is one that a number of Flynn courses have now basically evolved their original Flynn bunkers into. I guess one could say that the present bunker maintenance look works and looks fine enough on some of the Flynn courses that are now keeping a fairly clean look throughout the grounds. Those old raggedy, rugged bunkers of the early days looked great when massive amounts of natural sand and scrubby vegetation showed throughout the entire course and grounds but now that the course maintains a huge amount of fairway height cut throughout the grounds that has a much cleaner look throughout the course that cleaner bunker look fits in fine by me!

Brookline has dedicatedly maintained that ragged more rugged grass-line Flynn bunker look but it fits in great up there on that rugged terrain with its broken rugged natural lines with tons more heavy grass showing throughout their grounds.

They gave us a bunch of those old Flynn cards with #9 and #18 as long par 4s so I guess we were tired from too much driving when we said we recommended two cards for the club.

Thanks for the photo of #12. I'd definitely keep the trees behind that green to the left of the hut (behind the green) as I'd sure rather look at them than a bunch of high rises on Miami Beach but I sure would remove all the trees to the right of that hut behind the green as that would open up a great golf view of that cool little par 4 13th hole and particularly its green!

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2004, 12:22:36 PM »
Tom,
The view of 12 from the tee without the trees on the right gives a great view of 13 - as can be seen in the Golden Age photo. Losing those trees would also create a depth perception problem, possibly what Flynn was trying to capture with a view of water in front of the green and then water to the rear but very far away. The tee shot in the old picture looks much more uncertain. Isn't the hole facing ENE - into the prevailing winter wind?

TEPaul

Re:Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2004, 12:51:03 PM »
Craig;

I tend to get very easily turned around and screwed up as to what direction anything is when on a course I've never been to but my sense sort of told me that #12 faced ESE into the prevailing wind. Of course Florida does not have the consistent one direction prevailing wind Pennsylvania seems to and the alternate prevailing wind is ENE when a cold front is approaching or during one of the seasons--although I can't recall which season the prevailing northly wind is. But I think the more common prevailing wind down there is from the ESE.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2004, 09:09:08 PM »
TEPaul,

The trees behind the greens in the last two pictures are fairly recent.

I'd be curious to know who made the decision to frame the green rather then leave the skyline effect.

I'd also be curious to know if the framing attempt was an effort to hide the distant skyline/horizon, and if the timing of the buildings is related to the timing of the trees.

Do you have, or can you obtain this information ?

PJKoenig

Re:Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2004, 11:23:26 PM »
The contrarian speaks.....

CharlestonBuckeye

Re:Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2004, 05:07:37 AM »
I must have missed the thread that stated the photos were posted to gather your opinion.

I thought the place was tremendous.  

Thanks for the pictures.

wsmorrison

Re:Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2004, 07:45:29 AM »
JakaB,

I see nothing of interest in many of your posts.  Rather than taking the low road, why don't you ask constructive questions?  Individuals on this thread take the time to offer their inputs on Indian Creek in an effort to initiate a dialogue that can serve the better good.  

Why don't you ask specific questions that might serve to help you better understand their informed opinions (some of which might be subjective).  Well, let me ask you some questions.  

You see nothing interesting in a course completely crafted by man where every contour and feature is by design and made to look natural?  

You think there is nothing of interest in this kind of massive earth movement in the late 1920s?

Might there be an interesting comparison of the massive earth movement projects in the 1920s with some of the massive earth movement being done today--such as Frederica Golf Club?  

You think there is nothing of interest in the changing bunker appearance over time?  

You think there is nothing interesting in the use of trees both good and bad (as Pat pointed out sometimes the misuse of trees planted over time)?  

You think there is nothing of interest in how a course is designed with prevailing winds taken into account?

You think there is nothing of interest in the changes to yardages and par over time?

You think there is nothing to discuss on a course with some really excellent holes and many great ones?

Tommy Paul, Craig Disher, Mark Fine and others have seen a number of Flynn golf courses (I've seen 37) and we think this is in the top 5 of all his courses.  Don't you want to know why many of us and others think this is so high in this master architect's portfolio?

What does interest you rather than being a contrarian blowhard?

Some of your posts show that you are not a complete ass and have things of value to add.  Why don't you stick to that model rather than playing the fool?

A treehouse member, I can't recall who, writes that we should treat our caddies like we treat our children.  Why don't you write as if your children (should you have any) read your posts?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2004, 07:45:50 AM by wsmorrison »

TEPaul

Re:Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2004, 08:44:37 AM »
"Some of your posts show that you are not a complete ass and have things of value to add."

Wayne;

Go easy on Barney---he's a complex personality and very likely a very good American! Barney seems to have no fear at all or any compunction whatsoever at being labeled a complete ass on here from time to time and you should notice he's said as much. I can't count the times he's admitted on here to being a complete ass---sometimes apparently quite gleefully!

Barney's OK and just seems to like to launch brickbats from time to time if only to see how seriously some might react.

I've not met Barney but my image of him is a true red-blooded American that subsribes to the most fundamental of our American ideals!

What did I tell you on the ride home from Florida that represents most completely the finest ideal of our American democratic spirit?

Remember? I said, here in the US of A the right to make a complete ass out of yourself in public is one of our bedrock freedoms---and it should be protected at all costs! We should never forget this as Americans---many men have died in war and such to protect our right to make complete asses out of ourselves in public, and so we should never take this kind of thing lightly and we should never be too critical of our public asses or those who feel some need to be so.

;)

TEPaul

Re:Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2004, 08:51:42 AM »
Pat:

I'm certain we can find out when those trees behind #12 green on the left were planted but I can pretty much guarantee you that they should definitely stay right where they are. If they were removed it would expose as a back drop to that green on the left of a number of buildings on Miami Beach that definitely never won any architectural awards for beauty!  ;)

wsmorrison

Re:Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2004, 09:34:52 AM »
Tommy, you are absolutely correct.  JakaB has a right as an American to be whatever he wants to be online and offline.  I do not criticize his right to be an ass, he has clearly practiced the art of being an ass and is quite good at it.  What I do hope is someone like JakaB, who clearly has something to offer however deeply disguised would, not should, do so more often.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2004, 09:46:16 AM »
TEPaul & WSMorrison,

I would imagine that the planting of the trees is related to the buildings forming the backdrop.

If the land, money and material were available, would this be an ideal location for containment mounding, or do you think the high rise apartments are a more esthetic backdrop ?

A_Clay_Man

Re:Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2004, 10:59:14 AM »
It appears to be the subtleness of the shaping that makes it "natural looking".

And, I'd agree that some type of texture or color is needed, or would add, to the bunker edges. Maybe not the default blonde fescue, perhaps something redder, as the picture above which shows the underlying (what I assume is) dormant bermuda.

rgkeller

Re:Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2004, 11:05:02 AM »
>>Is this the ugliest great course in America.. <<

Well, Seminole is a little short of great vistas also.

But Indian Creek has a better locker room.

And the view from the IC clubhouse steps at night is pretty nice.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2004, 11:06:28 AM by rgkeller »

wsmorrison

Re:Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2004, 11:36:58 AM »
I'm sorry that I ever responded to JakaB.  People like him should rant and rave without feedback.  Just like a bully in grade school--if you ignore him and not react then he will go away.  After this I will no longer acknowledge his existence.  But he should know that I don't dislike him.  I don't know him.  I do know that I'd rather not get to know him.  He could care less I am sure.  My response is to his comments not to who he is.  But the greater good of this site and our pursuit of knowledge is certainly diminished by posts such as his.  How can we expect any club members or professionals to weigh in and share their knowledge and ideas with us when some like JakaB demonstrates such a negative attitude when he is so grossly uninformed?  Many more people than our little group of regular posters read this information and the site can be used for a lot of good.  Maybe you ought to give some thought to this and not merely incite for the sake of your baseless pleasures.  If a few photos give you the knowledge base to completely dismiss something, calling it the ugliest course in the top 100 you are once again beign destructive rather than constructive and without being fully or even partially informed.  You constantly generalize--why you don't use caddies as they are all uniformed and piss you off.  What absolute nonsense!  Maybe it is an artifact of what an ass you are and the fact that caddie masters refuse to send a competent good man with you.  This is one member of the treehouse that will not fall prey to your immature tactics again.

Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2004, 12:19:34 PM »
I grew up my whole god-damned life in South Florida and spent many days right over in that very area and never even knew this place existed!  Then again, we were not part of the private club set back then and my father mostly played up in Broward with his other doctor friends.

What a fantastic and interesting piece of property and place for a golf course.

Ahhh....someday...
« Last Edit: March 14, 2004, 12:21:06 PM by Evan_Fleisher »
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

wsmorrison

Re:Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2004, 12:55:55 PM »
Adam, I completely agree with your assessment.  The naturalness I refer to and you understood at Indian Creek is not the finish of the course; the bunker surrounds, mowing practices, waters edge, or other such superficial and changeable features.  The naturalness is in the architecture and the slopes and angles of the man-made topographic features.  There is a method in the designs of these features and plantings.  It takes more than one visit to take it all in even if that visit includes a walk around the course with Tom Paul and Joe Pantaleo.  I look forward to going back someday and learning more the next time.  What I meant to convey is that I regard the design and engineering as very special and in my top 5 Flynn...that is not meant to sway or influence anyone.  And I didn't mean for this to be a strict ranking either.  It is my general impression.  Sorry if some took it too seriously as it was not meant to be a rigorous test.  It is a course that serious students of golf architecture should try to see and then they can make their own determinations and not "because I said so."  If someone wants to understand the merits of this or any course, it would be hard to convince them here.  They should take Pat Mucci's advice and see for themselves and not prejudge one way or another.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2004, 12:58:21 PM by wsmorrison »

wsmorrison

Re:Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2004, 01:09:02 PM »
The fact that this may be the only surviving example of a completely man-made site from the Golden Age by definition makes it worth studying.  The Lido is the only other course I know of that was so completely fabricated by man--some 10 years prior to Indian Creek.  I think George Bahto wrote in his book on CBMac that 100 of the 115 acres of the course was filled with dredged fill.  I think it safe to say that these were two enormous projects even for the 1920s and quite an engineering job.  It is fascinating to study the work at Indian Creek and marvel to enjoy on many levels.

dfrey

Re:Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2004, 02:14:05 PM »
JakaB:

Before you criticize ICreek.....why don't you play it??  Oh I forgot.........YOU HAVE NO CHANCE GETTING ON ICREEK!  Save your observations for the public courses you play and not the ultra-private courses you can't!

rgkeller

Re:Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2004, 02:41:31 PM »
JakaB:

Before you criticize ICreek.....why don't you play it??  Oh I forgot.........YOU HAVE NO CHANCE GETTING ON ICREEK!  Save your observations for the public courses you play and not the ultra-private courses you can't!

Well, it is refreshing to have at least one poster here whose opinions are not derived from the exclusivity of a club's membership.

CharlestonBuckeye

Re:Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2004, 05:18:18 PM »
Jaka

You are certainly allowed to offer different or contrarian opinions.

How about doing so with even a hint of class?

PJKoenig

Re:Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2004, 07:51:41 PM »
I must admit, there's something pretty rich about JakaB lecturing people on uplifting the quality of their posts....