[JakaB]

Does the architect owe us the challenge of a Line of Charm if he expects his design to garner greatness....Or have we become so enamored in our own wit and strategic parlance that simply a Field of Desire will do....People will play a course on a less than frequent basis thus making a Line of Charm unfair to the modern mind....obsolete...I pray not as I wish not to dream of picking poppies in a Field of Delight...where the only strategic choice is based on talent and not the less obvious....swing away young man for I hide not from your hidden desires.   I have not played either but my gut tells me charm lays frozen at NGLA while desire may bask in the sun at Rustic....charm over desire is a choice not best left to the young....and herein lies some answers for true students of inquiry.

[THuckaby2]

I have not played either but my gut tells me charm lays frozen at NGLA while desire may bask in the sun at Rustic....

I have played both.. and I think I know what you're getting at... but I'm not sure if I agree.  Here's a HUGE compliment to Rustic though:  in many respects it is similar to NGLA in its effect on golfers...

TH

[RJ_Daley]

John, I imagine you are asking folks to pick their preference of courses. One style with generally narrow fairways and confined hazards of rough and bunkers oriented mostly up the fairway edges, offering favor for risk/reward to the player with ability to precisely play the one shot that offers the line of charm most flirtatious with the hazards or trouble.  The other being the generally wider less fearsome looking tee shots with more vague clues form the tee as to the better strategy and more favorable direction to take towards the goal of an accurate strike at the pin.  Would it be fair to say that our friends who have association and membership at Riviera while putting their creativity to work at Rustic Canyon have the best of contrasts between those two schools of design characteristics?  And, can't the field of delight indeed mask a subtle line of charm that may not be discovered until the player becomes intimately familiar with the course?

John, you speak of the people that play a course with line of charm characteristics less frequently and thus think the style is unfair and ancient.  But, isn't it really a case for defining the user of the course.  A private club, with frequent and intimately familiar players fits the line of charm mold.  A field of play with subtle clues to the astute player and offering the occasional player the broader fairway, yet with a hidden favored path, is better suited to public or CCFAD courses, I think.  Rather than charm over desire as you pose it, could one not also say something like cunning over enthusiasm or rational exuberance, or some such analogy that describes the emotions that the two design schools present?

[JakaB]

RJ,

In my mind...a Line of Charm is a place where the architect influences you to think where you want to hit the shot...when the best strategy lies elsewhere..thus being seen as unfair by the uninitiated.   A truly great line of charm will force even the most experience stratigist to focus on the moment or get lost in the architects menangerie....A Field of Delight is most simple in the basic nature of shot making as the name implies.

[THuckaby2]

RJ,

In my mind...a Line of Charm is a place where the architect influences you to think where you want to hit the shot...when the best strategy lies elsewhere..thus being seen as unfair by the uninitiated.   A truly great line of charm will force even the most experience stratigist to focus on the moment or get lost in the architects menangerie....A Field of Delight is most simple in the basic nature of shot making as the name implies.

OK, I get it better now.  Man, we have REALLY led things astray in the Rustic Canyon discussions.  In no way is it a simple field of delight... only for very good / very strong players, there is less interest in the tee shots than at other great courses... that's all.  It is absolutely not fair to say it's a field of delight.  For the vast majority of golfers, there are definite preferred angles, and they sure aren't easy to figure with certainty (witness #11 there).

I apologize if my ramblings gave you this impression.

Line of charm is all over the place at NGLA....

TH

[DMoriarty]

                      Scotland Small?

Scotland small? Our multiform, our infinite Scotland _small_?
Only as a patch of hillside may be a cliche corner
To a fool who cries "Nothing but heather!" . . .
"Nothing but heather!" -- How marvellously descriptive! And incomplete!

      -- Hugh MacDiarmid

[JakaB]

DM,

I doubt that a Line of Charm can be natural in the most naturalistic sense....as Scotland is more natural than some...its not the issue here.

[DMoriarty]

I doubt that a Line of Charm can be natural in the most naturalistic sense....as Scotland is more natural than some...its not the issue here.

I dont disagree.  What I was getting at is that characterizing Rustic by its extremely wide fairways ("nothing but heather") is both perfectly descriptive and woefully incomplete.  

Come out and see.

[ForkaB]

JakaB

I think the problem with the (so far) low volume of response here is the fact that there are only 8 "line of charm" holes in the world that have been properly certified by the Max Behr Society, dba TE Paul Enterprises, and 6 of them are at NGLA and the other two are at Riviera (there used to to 3 at the latter venue before Fazio got there).  So, the "Field of Delight" crowd has an enormous numerical advantage which makes this a very unfair fight.  But then, of course, who said golf was meant to be fair!  Keep up the good work.

[A_Clay_Man]

Another fine example of where golf deviates from normal  models and specifically buisness (bottomline) oriented ventures. The people who filled the tee sheet from 1982-1998 probably prefer the field of dreams, desire or however you wanna describe the aesthetics. Are the same people who's fickle unreliable denaro$$ have put so many venues in rescue mode.

You should feel the vibe here at Pinon. After being there yesterday the realities of the actions of the not so honorable gave me one of those psychic moments and predict they will be done kaput fini within five years.

Serious pathos Help DR.

[JakaB]

Rich,

I needed that clarification...I thought everyone understood a Line of Charm to the same degree they search for a Field of Delight...sadly I was wrong.  I have been rideculed in the past for suggesting that we should remove bias and put ourselves into the architects hands to truly develope a relationship with the purest of design elements...so much to ask for those with uncanny ability to decifer intent.  In a human relationship can charm survive under the microscope of intent...do compliments become sarcasm...does commitment seem like confinement.   The architect that knows this and eliminates the challenge from the tee...shows the same lack of respect for the player that welfare shows for the oppressed.   Creators of systems that do not cater to the potential growth of the user are...while remaining popular...inhibitors to greatness.   A Field of Delight will always book a full tee sheet..and bring em back generation after generation...a cycle of prosperity...and thats a good thing for golf.

[TEPaul]

JakaB:

It looks to me like you're trying to develop a writing style that's intended to be more complex than Max Behr himself!

[JakaB]

TomP,

One of the beauties of poor writing in this forum is that it makes the reader try to determine "intent"...in the above...do I really think a Field of Delight style of design is good for golf...or was I being sarcastic..I might not even know.   This mirrors the very same problem so many people have when they try to determine "intent" in design...some people call the location of a landform "luck" when it is strategically perfect on an architects job that they think is unworthy...other people think natural framing is genius...intent or not...I think it may be half the fun of discovery...it allows the reader or player to play a role in the design..like he discovered something.

On another note...could you set me straight on what you think is Line of Charm.  Of course it is a new term...not worthy of Maintenance Meld..but what do you think Field of Desire means in your book.

[TEPaul]

"One of the beauties of poor writing in this forum is that it makes the reader try to determine "intent".

JakaB:

I didn't say your writing was poor--anything but--you know I've always thought it was fascinating. I feel the same about Behr's writing although clearly few share my feeling about that. Those that pooh pooh Behr's writing, in my opinon, do it simply because they're incapable of understanding him and consequently assume his writing has no purpose, no conclusions, no real meaning. They're entirely wrong about that--I think--it has purpose, meaning and conclusions that are fascinating, almost beyond belief! More meaning in the way of fascinating difference of thought than any other golf writer I've ever read--and by a country mile! It just takes time to get used to it--something not many apparently cared to do.

Charles Ambrose's remark about Behr's writing (actually in the context of his "line of Charm" theory) put it best in my opinion;

"The striking thing about Mr Max Behr, the well know American golf architect, is that although he works his way to his conclusions by arguing his case with an elaboration which suggested that the result, when he does get there, will be a perfect terror of complication, while as a matter of fact is nothing of the sort. It's a model of simplicity."

[TEPaul]

Behr's "line of charm" idea really is relatively simple but truly functional strategically in it's effect.

Behr believed that most golfers see what he called a "point of instinct" along a "line of instinct" which is exactly where they instinctively want to hit the ball. (He sometimes called that "line of instinct" the 'bee-line'--generally the straightest line to the target--but not always--depending on topography!)

So he believed basically that along that "line" on that "point of instinct" the architect should place a bunker (or other architectural feature) to sort of take away from the player that exact spot and thereby make the golfer actively challenge or actively avoid that point! It is also interesting to note that often Behr felt that architectural feature could be quite small!

This was what became known as his "Line of charm" theory of golf architcture. But if one looks at the effect of it--it could probably be more properly called Line(S) of charm because by removing that "point of instinct" as an option Behr was creating for any golfer 1-2-3-4 active visible "lines of charm" for any golfer to decide for himself!

This was all part of the converse of what he felt was too much of the "down the middle" theory of golf architecture! That "down the middle" type of design he clearly felt was nothing more than a succeed/fail result completely dictated by the architect to the golfer in a one dimensional sense and consequently something that didn't really make the golfer think much for himself about his strategy.

Giving the golfer many active and visible options through his "line of charm" application he felt "made a call upon the intelligence" of the golfer. In a large way his feeling about "making a call upon a golfer's intelligence" wasn't that much different from creating something on which a golfer would have to use his "experiences" well. A "call upon intelligence" and "experience" was almost synonymous to Max Behr.

[JakaB]

TomP,

Very nice...thanks....Even on very bad courses I see the Line of Charm at work...the body telling you to hit the ball in one direction while the mind says no...The body seems to win out so often...be it by accident..a poorly constructed tee or an ill placed radio tower...Line of Charm may grow exponentially with the handicap....do professionals ever just hit the ball in the direction of the tee placement or mowing pattern..I doubt it but god knows I do...Can Line of Charm really be so subtle as a radio tower miles away that catches your eye while standing on the tee...I'd like to think so...did the architect get lucky...hell yes he did...he's an archtitect.

[TEPaul]

JakaB:

A radio tower as a "line of charm" feature? Hmmmm! I'll have to check with Max on that but it doesn't sound like something that could ever pass his muster.

The dual reasons are pretty basic though. 1. I can't imagine how Max would conceive of making a radio tower appear to be natural and not the hand of man--but he was a damned clever California Cat who could think of some pretty radical things, and; 2. I can't imagine how Max could get a radio tower at that exact "point of instinct" where the golfer wanted to position his ball along the "line of charm" which would mean getting that radio tower not only onto the golf course but probably somewhere around the middle of the fairway. But again, don't put anything past Max!

And sorry I didn't answer you on what I thought about your two terms; "Field of Delight" and "Field of Desire".

I like the sound of both of them a lot! I think I could probably affix a reasonable golf or architectural meaning to "Field of Delight" better than I could to "Field of Desire", though.

But nevertheless, you asked me what a "Field of Desire" means in my book.

Perhaps I could call you and we could work on a logical meaning together because if you're asking me what it means to me right now I'd have to answer you this way;

Did you see the movie Jerry MacGuire? Remember Rod Tidwell, the football player, who asked Jerry if he'd "shoplifted the  pootie"? Rod was clearly asking Jerry if he'd already nailed Renee Zellwegger, and did he realize that she had a little son and that Jerry shouldn't be taking advantage of a single mother like that by just selfishly and irresponsibly "shoplifting Renee's pootie"?

Well, to make a long story short, to me a "Field of Desire" would be a really good piece of golf architecture--a great looking golf hole--where after sundown when all the golfers were off the course a normal golfer's first instinct would be to "shoplift some pootie" (maybe even Renee's) somewhere on that hole. That's the first thing that comes to mind with a term like "Field of Desire" but, again, we should talk and maybe hone that definition some!

[DMoriarty]

Ali v. Foreman in Ziare -- most experts thought that Foreman was the stronger, better fighter before that fight, and few thought that the older Ali could withstand Foreman's awesome power.  The conventional wisdom was that Ali had to figure out a way to avoid Foreman's powerful punches, and then get lucky.  Incredibly, in the weeks leading up to the fight Ali mercilessly ridiculed, belittled, baited, and insulted Foreman.  Foreman's best qualities were ferocity and power, and Ali was focusing those very strengths-- egging Foreman along, apparently setting up Ali's own destruction.  After weeks of this Foreman didnt just want to win the fight, he wanted to tear Ali's head off.  

On fight night, Foreman came out swinging with vengeance, power, and hate driving each powerful punch.  And instead of dancing away as everyone expected, Ali took the punches, took them then invited Foreman to throw more; talking, taunting, insulting Foreman, tempting Foreman, Rope-a-Doping as if he had a death wish.  Foreman's actions werent controlled by concious choice or plan, he was fighting by instinct.  Foreman was spellbound by his own power, his own fury, his animosity toward Ali.  He wasnt there to win, he was there to settle all scores by the oldest and purest means.  He would kill Ali, with his own powerful hands. Ali was the Line of Charm, and Foreman was so bewitched that he could not even contemplate doing anything but trying to hurt Ali with every punch.  

And then, in the 6th, Foreman snapped out of it.  Some at ringside said that suddenly, for a split second, an austonished look of recognition came over Foreman's face, followed closely by a look of helplessness and despair.  He had awoken from Ali's spell, Ali's potion had worn off.  It was only for a blink, but those that were there were chilled.  Ali saw it to, and reacted as if knew it was coming.  Even though the fight wouldnt end until the 8th, it was over. Not only had Foreman failed to kill Ali, but now realized that he couldnt.  But it was too late to start boxing.  Foreman was exhausted.  He had nothing left.

JakaB, I cant convince you respect a course you havent yet played, but you might want to refrain from taking to heart the boisterous opinions of those whose battles with Rustic are still in the first round.

[TEPaul]

David Moriarty:

Interesting analogy to the Ali/Foreman fight in Zaire--the rope a dope. Don't forget Ali either recognized how loose the ropes were or arranged for them to be and also Ali was probably the most talented and unquestionably the smartest heavyweight boxer ever and probably by a mile! That fight was one of the all time most clever setup I've ever seen in a major sports event.

[JakaB]

TomP,

Field of Delight was my only intention...Field of Desire was a slip...might be better as some accidents are..

I've been thinking about the radio tower as a Line of Charm used in an intentional way in design...I'm sure you have played many holes where a man made item draws the eye of the golfer in the same way a natural land form may...ie..the windmill at NGLA...that is if anyone ever aims in its direction..or if it is even pre or post design..I don't know and am not sure if that makes a difference.   I would like you to try an experiment..can be done in your mind...Take a set of tee markers and first set them square to the target...then 20 deg left...then 20 deg right and see how average golfers set up to the target in each of the three settings.   I believe each different setting creates a different artifical Line of Charm for the golfer...it should not matter...but sadly it does....and this being a game..is the artificial Line of Charm less worthy than the natural...of course it is...but its there and its in a constant state of flux.   Kinda sad don't you think..  

[Craig Van Egmond]

Sadly for Ali, he won the battle but lost the war, all that brilliance is locked away now and George seems fine.

[T_MacWood]

Another piece of the 'line of charm' theory was thrill. The architect did not totally eliminate the line of instinct as a choice, but he created a risk in taking that option.

If a golf hole is designed simply to penalize the pushed or pulled shot and the good player is able to negotiate easily down the line of instinct, there isn't much thrill. If he successfully negoiates the line of instinct on hole designed to be played with a broken line, there is significant thrill.

Another aspect of line of charm is the hazard does not necessarily have to effect the current stroke, but might be ahazard that effects the next shot, which in turn effects the direction/thought process of the previous shot. When I read of the complaints regarding Rustic Canyon's tees shots, I wonder if it might take time to understand the broken lines.

[Ben Sims]

All,

Download The Killers "All These Things that I've Done" and reread this thread.

Best thread I've ever read.

[Bob Jenkins]

Ben,

Thank you for bringing this thread to our attention.

I must admit I have had to read it more than once to understand it and it certainly makes you think!

Thanks again.

[Brett Hochstein]

Radio tower as a line of charm?  Franklin Hills hole 1:


One of the first things that struck me about the view from the first hole at Franklin Hills was the looming presence of the channel 50 tower, a real monster whose forked top and view high above my grandparents' old house fascinated me since my youngest days.  I have names that I refer to each of the holes in my head, and the first is 'Tower.'  Often times I will catch myself describing the first shot and advising to "try hit the tower," though in reality this would probably put you off into the right bunker or rough.  I know better, but the location of that tower beyond the golf course always seems to make me forget, even for just a split second. 

The view in this photo is from the alternate back tees off to the left of the main tees, and it is only from here that a ball hit accurately toward the tower would stay in the fairway, but it wouldn't really be the best spot. 

This is a really interesting topic and perhaps an answer as to why I always wanted, or actually pictured, the tower to be right down the middle, anchoring the vast, downhill opening golf hole.  Now I have to try and think of other situations where distant objects or other things have knowingly or unknowingly played with my mind, but I can't imagine one being stronger than this.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()