Donald Steel

[ForkaB]

George

Here's what I actually said a few months ago.

"Skibo is a good golf course.  I'd put it in the same general class as North Berwick, Gullane #1, Nairn, Machrahanish, etc.  Ran's review on this site is pretty complimentary, too."

Yours Blahly

Rich

[George Pazin]

Let's go to the videotape:

Rich -

...Skibo is a good golf course.  I'd put it in the same general class as North Berwick, Gullane #1, Nairn, Machrahanish, etc.  Ran's review on this site is pretty complimentary, too...

Tom D -

Rich, I'm dumbstruck that you would put Skibo in the same category as North Berwick or Gullane #1.

Rich -

When you play Skibo and look at it honestly vis a vis Gullane #1 and North Berwick, you won't be dumbstruck, I don't think...

Rich -

(later) Sorry for confusing you with Brian Phillips, but I assumed you were he when I made my point about Skibo vs. North Berwick, etc., as we were in the middle of a "conversation."  Over cyberspace, all architects look the same ........ (I'd insert a smiley face in here if I had not sworn off "emoticons" recently).

My point was probably (very) slightly overstated because Brain had previously said that his only knowledge of Skibo was what some greenkeeper at TOC told him, so I was really saying, "see for yourself!"  That being said, I do stand by my assessment.  I think NB, as fun as Brian rightly says it is and as historically important as it is, has too many average holes to be called "great."  Neither is Skibo "great", but it is a good, solid golf course.  I think Steele could have done better, but it ain't bad.  In fact, the only real weaknesses I see on the course are in the final 3 holes where he decided (or was told) to get off the links and route 3 holes out to and along the Loch.  Gorgeous scenery, but 16 is just a slog through the meadow grass and 17 and 18 (which are the "signature holes") are more tricked up than tricky.  Of course, even a nearly completely objective observer such as I can't help but be impressed by the sense of self-importance which the place has about it.  Very characteristic "Top-100" sort of thing...................

Tom D -

Rich:  That very "sense of self-importance" seemed so out of place when looking at the golf holes at Skibo that it dragged the course down with it, for me.

---------

Pretty much verbatum what I said, isn't it?

[D._Kilfara]

FWIW, I completely agree with Rich's comments about North Berwick having "too many average holes". I'd like to play Skibo some day to be able to compare the two, but I have a hard time justifying the greens fee to myself (when I could play at Brora, Golspie, Tain or even Reay instead)...

Cheers,
Darren

[ForkaB]

Thanks George

That last post is an accurate reflection of what Tom and I said.  Your previous post was not.

[George Pazin]

Rich -

That's why I put the smiley on both - kinda poking fun at myself. Sorry if I offended.

My larger point was that there wasn't a whole lot of discussion of either Steel or Skibo, just a quick exchange. I don't think I was too far off there.

[ForkaB]

Geroge

At least I said more of substance than Doak did!  I'm pretty sure I said some other things at other times about Skibo and Steel, but unlike some people on this DG I do not get thrills out of doing Moe Norman imitations every day and repeating myself, repeating myself.....

[Brian Phillips]

Darren,

How dare you...!!  North Berwick...too many average holes...what planet are you on?

1st quirky weird start, seen people make par from the beach
2nd great heroic hole
3rd another quirky hole over a wall in the middle of a fairway
4th boring
5th basic drive and wedge hole
6th great par 3 with huge ravine in front
7th great short par 4 with burn in front
8th long par 4 or short par 5 from medals...basic
9th great par 5 drive as close as you dare to the wall to get shorter shot to green
10th great bunkered par 3
11th another doglegged par 5 cut off as much as you dare ..push the shot and in the bunkers you go. good hole.
12th short drive and pitch par 4 with difficult green to hit
13th need I say anymore...
14th not my favourite but many love it
15th THE REDAN
16th Fantastic green
17th crap
18th Easy par if you have the balls to hit driver with all those cars on the right.

Now don't even get me started on what I think of TOC or the Eden course...

I only count 4 or five average holes on a course unaltered for HOW long?  I would rather play North Berwick than TOC anyday....At least North Berwick hasn't succumb to the Disney World of golf attitude unlike your favourite TOC.  

Brian Phillips

[Sean_A]

Its really surprising how many courses Steel in his partnership with Pennink & Cotton as well as solo has worked on in the UK.  Hawtree is very similar.  Not too many original designs, but loads and loads of tweaking and building the odd hole here and there.  This may not be accurate, but I think of Pennink, Hawtree and Steel as very similar in their style architecture and in this way direct descendants of Colt. 

Steel has taken a bit of a battering over the years for his work to Open venues, but I think this is largely unjustified.  The clubs made the decision to make changes and Steel was on hand to facilitate these changes.  The one change which always amazes me is Hoylake's Royal.  For the life of me, I can't understand how somebody could think the old hole was better than the new one.  Many complain that his greens don't meld well other styles and this is another complaint I don't understand because often they are better.  Imagine if folks complained about Colt's work on the holes near the beach because it wasn't in keeping with the original holes?  A totally silly argument imo - especially when one considers that nearly all links in the UK have been mucked with significantly over the years - they are mongrel designed and often times they are all the better for it. 

Finally, Steel's work at Enniscrone is simply outstanding.  He has made Enniscrone what I consider to be one of the very best courses in Ireland and unlike the robber barons at the more venerable clubs, Enniscrone doesn't ask one to sacrifice their first born the privilege of a game.  I say its time we start to recognize the work of some of Britain's post war archies as outstanding especially given the what would have often been very limited budgets availaible.

Ciao

[Brian Phillips]

Its really surprising how many courses Steel in his partnership with Pennink & Cotton as well as solo has worked on in the UK.  Hawtree is very similar.  Not too many original designs, but loads and loads of tweaking and building the odd hole here and there.  This may not be accurate, but I think of Pennink, Hawtree and Steel as very similar in their style architecture and in this way direct descendants of Colt. 

Steel has taken a bit of a battering over the years for his work to Open venues, but I think this is largely unjustified.  The clubs made the decision to make changes and Steel was on hand to facilitate these changes.  The one change which always amazes me is Hoylake's Royal.  For the life of me, I can't understand how somebody could think the old hole was better than the new one.  Many complain that his greens don't meld well other styles and this is another complaint I don't understand because often they are better.  Imagine if folks complained about Colt's work on the holes near the beach because it wasn't in keeping with the original holes?  A totally silly argument imo - especially when one considers that nearly all links in the UK have been mucked with significantly over the years - they are mongrel designed and often times they are all the better for it. 

Finally, Steel's work at Enniscrone is simply outstanding.  He has made Enniscrone what I consider to be one of the very best courses in Ireland and unlike the robber barons at the more venerable clubs, Enniscrone doesn't ask one to sacrifice their first born the privilege of a game.  I say its time we start to recognize the work of some of Britain's post war archies as outstanding especially given the what would have often been very limited budgets availaible.

Ciao

Sean,

We would recognise the post war European architects but to be honest it has all been pretty poor.

Many of them have had opportunities to do good work but they have not grabbed the chance to do so.

I thought that it was Mackenzie and Ebert that did the Hoylake changes but I might be wrong.

Have a look at their website and Enniscrone is also on the portfolio.  I would guess that all the good work that "Steel" had done in the last ten years was done by Tom and Martin.

http://www.mackenzieandebert.co.uk/index.htm

Brian.

[Gary Slatter]

I don't know what his mandate was on the Jubilee nor the Eden but I believe his best so far is the "first tropical links course" the ABACO CLUB in the northern Bahamas.  Fast and firm always, often the only players on the course are well known european tour players.  I doubt it will survive the current economic climate, the islands are littered with closed courses.

[Andrew Mitchell]

Sean/Brian

I also thought it was Steel who did the changes at Hoylake.

Am I correct in thinking that it was Steel who designed the Bracken course at Woodhall Spa?  I have never played it, mainly because everyone I have spoken to who has played it have advised me not to go anywhere near!!

[Mark Pearce]

If he is responsible for the Bracken then he has at least one dreadful course in his CV.

[Brian Phillips]

I would love to see a timeline comparison of Steel work with Tom and Martin and a timeline comparison of work before Tom and Martin.

[Rory Connaughton]

I believe that much of the Steele work at Enniscrone is actually attributable to Martin Ebert.  Ebert has been engaged by the club to make a number of minor modifications to the greens at 2, 14 and 15 in order to make them more receptive (there are some pretty severe fall offs).  Ebert has also been engaged to make a significant modification to the first hole which includes eliminating the bunker just short of the green, lowering the front edge and expanding the green to twice its original size.  From my perspective, the approach to the first was one of the most difficult shots on the course if you had anything but short iron (essentially death if you did not hold the very small surface) so I suspect that the idea is to make it a bit more visitor friendly.  Hopefully the changes will not diminish the initial "wow" of turning towards the dunes.

[BCrosby]

Contra the "evolution is always good, particularly so in the UK" craziness, you need only note the record of post-WII architecture in the UK.

Whatever successes there might have been, they are more than offset by the relegation to mediocrity of the once highly regarded Prince's, Liphook and Eden.  I'm sure I'm forgetting others. 

Bob 

[Mike Hendren]

I must second the comments of Darren Kilfara with respect to Steel's work at The Eden Course, while offering the caveat that I have not had the opportunity to enjoy Steel's other work and would not want my career judged by my poorest effort.

That said, I cannot fathom a professional golf course architect's willingness to leave the modifications there as part of his body of work.  It's not just the pond but rather a total disregard for the brilliance of H. S. Colt and the Cradle of Golf.  The Links Trust should also be ashamed for dishonoring both.

Mike

[Ally Mcintosh]

Whatever successes there might have been, they are more than offset by the relegation to mediocrity of the once highly regarded Prince's, Liphook and Eden. 

Bob 

Bob, Slightly Off-Topic here but can you tell me what you are referring to with regards Liphook?... I am planning on getting down there for the first time in early summer to see the course and have a look at some of the Tom Simpson archives.... I am hazy on the Architectural history of the club...

[Sean_A]

Contra the "evolution is always good, particularly so in the UK" craziness, you need only note the record of post-WII architecture in the UK.

Whatever successes there might have been, they are more than offset by the relegation to mediocrity of the once highly regarded Prince's, Liphook and Eden.  I'm sure I'm forgetting others. 

Bob 

Bob

We are lucky to have Princes at all - it was destroyed in the war.  Additionally, if the new Princes represents mediocrity I want to play my golf where do.  Remember, these guys were working on short budgets and often times were hired in to solve specific problems.  

Does anybody know what Steel's brief was at the Eden or is this a case of blame the archie for the will of the master?  

Mark, I agree that Woodhll's second course isn't stellar, but I do like the back 9 quite a bit.  The biggest problem with the Bracken is that the Hotchkin is next door.  

Brian

You could be right that it was Mac & Eb who did the work at Hoylake, but I thought they were working for Steel at the time - this is about the time Steel packed it in.  I think the same is true at Enniscrone.  Its a bit harsh to not give the senior man at a firm credit for work when he has been properly in the business for yonks.  IMO, if its Steel's company then he gets the credit, how he chooses to credit associates is up to him.  

There are countless examples of great work done by the post war archies, but few bother to look into it, they just assume it is all older work.  

Ciao

[Brian Phillips]

Contra the "evolution is always good, particularly so in the UK" craziness, you need only note the record of post-WII architecture in the UK.

Whatever successes there might have been, they are more than offset by the relegation to mediocrity of the once highly regarded Prince's, Liphook and Eden.  I'm sure I'm forgetting others. 

Bob 

Bob

We are lucky to have Princes at all - it was destroyed in the war.  Additionally, if the new Princes represents mediocrity I want to play my golf where do.  Remember, these guys were working on short budgets and often times were hired in to solve specific problems.  

Does anybody know what Steel's brief was at the Eden or is this a case of blame the archie for the will of the master?  

Mark, I agree that Woodhll's second course isn't stellar, but I do like the back 9 quite a bit.  The biggest problem with the Bracken is that the Hotchkin is next door.  

Brian

You could be right that it was Mac & Eb who did the work at Hoylake, but I thought they were working for Steel at the time - this is about the time Steel packed it in.  I think the same is true at Enniscrone.  Its a bit harsh to not give the senior man at a firm credit for work when he has been properly in the business for yonks.  IMO, if its Steel's company then he gets the credit, how he chooses to credit associates is up to him.  

There are countless examples of great work done by the post war archies, but few bother to look into it, they just assume it is all older work.  

Ciao

Sean,

Steel put his name on the Eden work.  It his work, his name.  It is awful no matter which way you look at it.  I don't care if the Links Trust whipped me to design that way I would not have done it, no matter what the money.  I also know who did the construction as well nd he could not even remember putting the pond in!  The mounding on all the holes that he designed are pure 80's containment mounding and it is very, very poor architecture.

I agree with you about credit when it is his name on work such as Hoylake. I am merely pointing out that "the boys" did the work and they now have it on their website.

I do not agree with your last sentence.  Can you please give me some examples of great work done by European architects after the war up to about the 90s.

Cheers,

Brian

[Robert Thompson]

I too found the revisions to the Eden to be awful and out of character. Apparently from talking to those involved at Steel's firm, it isn't regarded very well and had something to do with the shaper and construction crew being involved, as well as a lack of involvement on Steel's part.

That said, I really enjoy playing Redtail, his minimalist design in Ontario. And the firm's work at Goodwood in Uxbridge (which has been sitting unopened and largely unplayed for the past two seasons) looked really interesting as well.

I've spoken with Martin Ebert -- he is an interesting fellow. That said, is there anyone in the UK actually doing restorative work to classic courses? Strikes me that the work being done by Hawtree and Ebert and Mackenzie is "sympathetic" at best and surely not restorative.

[Rory Connaughton]

Sean:

   I intended no disrespect to Steele.  Perhaps I should have said that Ebert was principally involved in the Steele work at Enniscrone.

[Brian Phillips]

I have been told that Tom's work at Woking is very good.

[Sean_A]

Contra the "evolution is always good, particularly so in the UK" craziness, you need only note the record of post-WII architecture in the UK.

Whatever successes there might have been, they are more than offset by the relegation to mediocrity of the once highly regarded Prince's, Liphook and Eden.  I'm sure I'm forgetting others. 

Bob 

Bob

We are lucky to have Princes at all - it was destroyed in the war.  Additionally, if the new Princes represents mediocrity I want to play my golf where do.  Remember, these guys were working on short budgets and often times were hired in to solve specific problems.  

Does anybody know what Steel's brief was at the Eden or is this a case of blame the archie for the will of the master?  

Mark, I agree that Woodhll's second course isn't stellar, but I do like the back 9 quite a bit.  The biggest problem with the Bracken is that the Hotchkin is next door.  

Brian

You could be right that it was Mac & Eb who did the work at Hoylake, but I thought they were working for Steel at the time - this is about the time Steel packed it in.  I think the same is true at Enniscrone.  Its a bit harsh to not give the senior man at a firm credit for work when he has been properly in the business for yonks.  IMO, if its Steel's company then he gets the credit, how he chooses to credit associates is up to him.  

There are countless examples of great work done by the post war archies, but few bother to look into it, they just assume it is all older work.  

Ciao

Sean,

Steel put his name on the Eden work.  It his work, his name.  It is awful no matter which way you look at it.  I don't care if the Links Trust whipped me to design that way I would not have done it, no matter what the money.  I also know who did the construction as well nd he could not even remember putting the pond in!  The mounding on all the holes that he designed are pure 80's containment mounding and it is very, very poor architecture.

I agree with you about credit when it is his name on work such as Hoylake. I am merely pointing out that "the boys" did the work and they now have it on their website.

I do not agree with your last sentence.  Can you please give me some examples of great work done by European architects after the war up to about the 90s.

Cheers,

Brian

Brian

PM Ross: Turnberry & Southerness

Pennink: Saunton West, Woburn(s) & Vilamoura

Campbell & Morrison(?): Princes

Steel: Carnegie Abbey looks awfully good, Forest of Arden

Plus, guys like Hawtree (Fred & Martin), Steel, Cotton and Pennink have been involved in countless work on the very best courses in GB&I.  Its hard to believe they were terrible archies.  

I can personally vouch for the following:

F Hawtree did a great job at Burnham on #'s12 & 13, his son did a wonderful job on #6 and Pennink did credible (if a bit vicious) work on #14.  

CK Cotton did some great work at Pennard which includes the #s 2, 3 and #s 6 & 10 greens.  Steel did a great job with the 4th green and built a good 5th hole.

We all need to be careful about branding an archie based on a bad project, especially if we don't know the circumstances.

Take a look at this.  http://www.donaldsteel.com/index1.htm  By any standard, Steel contributions to the game as an architect, player and writer commands respect and some would do well to read about this man before making disparaging remarks.   

Ciao

[Brian Phillips]

"Forest of Arden"

Sean....you are joking...? You cannot be serious, man, you cannot be serious?

Turnberry - redesign

Princes - redesign

Many of the post war archies have done wonderful work on existing (stunning) courses but very few have actually produced the goods on new ground.

I'll give you Vilamoura and maybe Woburn as good to great courses.

You still have not named a really class course designed by an European Architect post war...sorry.

Now people will start to realise why the American invasion occurred...   

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

FWIW... Steel is in the process of doing a complete renovation at my club in NC.  We looked at a wide variety of architects for the work, but came away most impressed with him and his ideas for improvement.  The first stage just got underway (with the help of shapers at Medalist), and his work so far is top notch.  I hope to keep the group updated with pictures.  Not sure if we have many "befores" to compare with the "afters" but I think you'll find it interesting nonetheless.