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Tim Liddy

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TPC, most important course in the last 50 years
« on: March 28, 2003, 12:29:04 PM »
1.      Its unique design elements originate a new golf course vocabulary in golf course design.  This hand crafted uniqueness can not be overstated. It has influenced many of today’s architects.
2.      It takes golf course design into a new era (forward-not backward to 1920’s design).
3.      It holds up very well to new technology with its demanding shot values, even thought is less than 7100 yards.
4.      It was built in a swamp, precursor of many of today’s modern sites.  I am sure many classical architects would have walked away from this site as not pretty enough.
5.      It is very, very hard to build a golf course of this quality and unique design vocabulary (witness the many bad golf course around the country that mimic it – this confuses many architectural critics, lumping into a bad modern golf course design vocabulary).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JakaB

Re: TPC, most important course in the last 50 year
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2003, 01:56:12 PM »
Tim,

What role if any did you play in the design and construction of the TPC...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John Nixon

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Re: TPC, most important course in the last 50 year
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2003, 01:59:23 PM »
Tim, if you really are that Tim Liddy  ;)  , welcome. Glad to have you here. Now, about that crazy green you put in at #10 at Coffin....

But seriously, one man's swamp is another regulatory program's wetland - isn't it getting tougher and tougher to do anything in a "swamp"?

Your point #1 and #5 are a bit contradictory - sure it's influential, but if most of that influence is used to produce mostly "bad" courses, is it worth it?
Quote
1.      Its unique design elements originate a new golf course vocabulary in golf course design.  This hand crafted uniqueness can not be overstated. It has influenced many of today’s architects.

4.      It was built in a swamp, precursor of many of today’s modern sites.  I am sure many classical architects would have walked away from this site as not pretty enough.

5.      It is very, very hard to build a golf course of this quality and unique design vocabulary (witness the many bad golf course around the country that mimic it – this confuses many architectural critics, lumping into a bad modern golf course design vocabulary).

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Liddy

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Re: TPC, most important course in the last 50 year
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2003, 02:34:48 PM »
JakaB,

I wished I would have worked on it, but I had no involvement on this project. But I admit I am prejudice towards the architect that completed the project.

Diddle guy (Nixer)

Good point, but there are many bad classical golf courses as well that were influenced by the great classical golf course. But because they tend to be more natural, I think their errors are muted.  But when everything is contrived, mistakes really show.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: TPC, most important course in the last 50 year
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2003, 02:45:59 PM »
I love TPC, but (as an outsider) I'm not sure of its influence on the industry.  It was hardly the first golf course built on swampland (most of the courses in Florida could qualify), nor the first to use "classic" design features (one could call TPC "Harbour Town on steroids.").  The "newest" thing that was built there were the "waste areas" which proved to be a damp squib after the pros found that they could get more control from there than from the fairway!

I'd vote for Bandon Dunes which proved that if you can build a great golf course in the middle of nowhere, they will come.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Liddy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TPC, most important course in the last 50 year
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2003, 02:47:19 PM »
Bobby Weed would be the guy who would know.  I think he did the revisions.  I also think Deane Beaman had alot to do with the tiers of the greens, especially the original design.  Again, Bobby Weed would know.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt Kardash

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Re: TPC, most important course in the last 50 year
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2003, 04:44:30 PM »
I'm not sure if "most important" is the right thing to say... It is probably that most "orginal" course in the last 50 years, maybe ever (i mean golf never saw anything quite so different)

What's amazing is that it somehow still looks fresh, even though it has been copied more than any other course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Ran Morrissett

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Re: TPC, most important course in the last 50 year
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2003, 05:44:17 PM »
What a great, great thread/post.

Tim, In what respects would you place TPC's architecture ahead of Harbour Town's in terms of importance? Points #1, 3, and 5 apply equally to HT, don't they (as well as point 2, at least to me)? The stadium vernacular is certainly unique and might well indeed support the word  "influential" as opposed to "important" relating to TPC.

Of course, for TPC not to be the most important, we need to suggest a modern design that is more important and to date no one has done that. Perhaps Augusta National?  ;D

Harbour Town is a very worthy contender though. The site at Sand Hills is too unique to qualify, plus built in the mid 1990s, its far too young to win such a discussion.

A course like High Pointe with its ground game options has no chance as no one hardly has played/heard of it to define it as "important." It has to be a course on TV, I suppose. Muirfield Village? The fixation with maintenance is a definite influence, though like TPC, some of its influence should NOT be viewed as a positive. But as a housing track, Muirfield Village is of exception.

Great thought provoking thread.

Thanks,

Ran

PS Put another way, does the most important course in the past 50 years need to be a housing track?? Perhaps given that's what has driven much of the golf course construction boom for the past 40 years. That line of reasoning brings me back to HT and not TPC.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

Mike Benham

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Re: TPC, most important course in the last 50 year
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2003, 06:13:06 PM »
I would rank it high on the importance list for reason #4 in Tim's list as it showed that with enough money (more so now) an undesirable piece of property can be manufacturered into a golf course.  Even though some of the Hawaiian courses, built on lava beds, came first, TPC has become the poster child for bad property.

This, however, does not equate to being architectually important but more for the growth of new courses in the 70's, 80's and 90's.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

ian

Re: TPC, most important course in the last 50 year
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2003, 06:45:10 PM »
It certainly rediscovered (see Pine Valley) the use of psychology to impact the way a player attacks the course. The course is full of deception, misleading strategies, and high high drama. I think Pete showed the architects that upsetting the mindset of the good player can be just as impactful as shear length. The reason the course is great is because it requires aggression on one hole and patience on the next. It rewards the mind, and a shot maker over a hitter. The last thing that makes it great is anticipation, it doesn't matter which hole you are playing, you begin a slow build towards the ultimate gut check shot. then he hits you with a ball buster when you go to take your breath. It may not be perfect, but the site was generally awful. Place it with other greats and evaluate it agaainst what was achieved compared to what was naturally there, and then you realize how good it is. Most important course in 50 years, I don't know; one of the best designs of the modern era, absolutely!

On a personal note, just to show that I'm not worshipping exclusively in the church (excuse the reference) of Pete. I would never want to try to create anything like this, I think it was Tom Doak who said it would have been best if this was a one off and was not poorly copied for a number of years.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: TPC, most important course in the last 50 year
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2003, 07:14:14 PM »
Wouldn't it be safe to say that when one looks at or mentions the so-called "Modern Age" of architecture they should break that down into a few categories just as the front of Cornish and Whitten does?

After WW2 the so-called "Modern Age" of architecture was ushered in--particularly RTJ, then Dick Wilson and a number of other slightly lesser known architects all who basically built courses that were becoming more aerial oriented in design, much larger in scale, longer, more overall earth movement on entire sites, on the mid-bodies of individual holes etc.

That was one category of the "Modern Age" perhaps the first or earliest category beginning in the late 1940s and moving into the late 1960s and 1970s.

And then along came Pete Dye and took things (for a time) in another direction from the earlier category. To really understand TPC and HT (very different courses from each other though) is to really start to understand Pete Dye and his own unique influence on architecture, particularly the direction of the so-called "Modern Age" itself.

Pete is certainly a great talent, a man and architect who really did march to his own drummer and did things very differently from any before him. Both TPC and HT are real examples of that--the first and perhaps best examples of that.

Much of it seemed to be a harking back to some of what interested him during his extended time in Scotland with Alice.

One might have thought Pete would have been most interested in the naturalism of many of those Scottish courses but Pete might tell you he became just as interested in the rudimentary architecture of Scotland (the rudimentary man made features of early Scottish architecture).

But clearly Pete put his own spin on these things with his own applications in architecture. The small greens of HT departing from the large scale of RTJ and Wilson and the first part of the "Modern Age". Things such as the prevalent use of his famous railroad ties as a atavistic application of things like the rudimentary European stark wooden sleepers!

But one should never really look at Pete as what some think as a minimalist in architecture--like the minimalist look of some of the European courses. Pete could be a constructor bigtime--Pete always loved machinery and its possiblities but with many innovative and original ideas or retooled ideas--ie spectator mounds, island green, waste areas, great diagonals, balanced and/or staggered strategies but pretty much aerial though--a constant sign of the "Modern Age". Pete certainly could produce an entire golf course out of an apparent wasteland though---there's little doubt of that!

I think of Pete Dye as almost his own era--just as apparently C&W do. He's an original--he looked back into earlier architecture with some things he did--he looked forward with other things he did--and he was wholly original on other things.

Maybe because of things such as all this a course like TPC is one of the most important courses of the last fifty years, but personally I think there are others that challenge it for importance like Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, perhaps Friar's Head but probably not amongst such a broad base of golfers like Pete and his early courses.

Why?

The real big difference in considering the "importance" of Pete's courses like HT and TPC over the others is that just like almost all courses or architects that are considered important or influential--the courses of Pete Dye back then like TPC or HT were the tournament sites that the world of golf saw so much of. That alone is naturally going to have an influence on what more people think is "important" as much or more than just the architecture! TPC and HT were very important departures from the way things were going in architecture in their time but not any more so than Sand Hills, in my opinion. But this is probably just strictly in an architectural context as again, the world of golf saw Pete's courses so much more because they were top tournament sites--and that alone will have a much greater influence (apparent importance).

In a real way Pete Dye also managed to do something that another great architect, Alister MacKenzie, did to put himself on the map---they both managed to create a good deal of controversy with what they did--and that too always draws attention.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brad Klein

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Re: TPC, most important course in the last 50 year
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2003, 07:27:16 PM »
I suspect Harbor Town was more revolutionary in concept, as it was so simple, intimate and small when everything in those days was grand on a lateral scale. But TPC Sawgrass is far more sophisticated because it incorporates all sorts of left-to-right/right-to-left shot-making options, as did Seminole, and it does so by shaping down more than shaping up; which was so contrary to the emerging style at that time. I think that TPC Sawgrass holds up amazingly well these years - even though it has been much altered.

Bobby Weed (the original superintendent there) rebuilt the greens five times at Deane Beman's behest. The joke is that when asked to produce his five mandatory plans for golf courses upon applying for admission to the American Society of Golf Course Architects, Weed just submitted his work on TPC.

On a more serious note, one original aspect of the course has been entirely abandoned - its rough, low-maintenance, scrawny sandy look. It was heralded as minimal maintenance in the early 1980s but has been turfed over completely.

On a dissenting note, I do think there's one major shortcoming of the course. Pete Dye gets so nervous building short-par4s that he tends to overuse the same unworkable theme of a heavily built-up mid-fairway mound that obscures the green. He has the same weird hole at Old Marsh (no. 5), Long Cove (no. 5) and TPC Sawgrass (no. 12).

Anyway, I think Tim is absolutely right. Too many people look at the 17th peninsula green par-3 hole - even though the forced carry is totally out of character with the rest of the course. The genius hole at TPC Sawgrass that continues to amaze and bedevil good players is the double-dogleg, multi-option par-5 11th.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: TPC, most important course in the last 50 year
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2003, 07:50:11 PM »
Brad:

"He has the same weird hole at Old Marsh (no. 5), Long Cove (no. 5) and TPC Sawgrass (no. 12)."

Not many seem to have ever liked this but I do. Pete threw some blindness smack dab into the middle of the "Modern Age" theme when architecture wasn't supposed to do things like that (blindness) at that time. Just another good example of Pete Dye marching to his own drum!

Also almost every single architect of any era was fairly apprehensive if not completely nervous about what really good players felt about their courses.

Not Pete--he went after those great players and their attitude with a vengenance! Another example of marching......!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John Nixon

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Re: TPC, most important course in the last 50 year
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2003, 08:01:23 PM »

Quote

Diddle guy (Nixer)

Good point, but there are many bad classical golf courses as well that were influenced by the great classical golf course. But because they tend to be more natural, I think their errors are muted.  But when everything is contrived, mistakes really show.


Fair enough, I suppose you can't blame the originator for the shortcomings of those who follow.

Now, if I may threadjack a bit, are you involved with Mr. Dye at his course in Hamilton Co., Stonebridge, I think it's called? I drive by there every so often, looks like a good piece of land to work on. What's really interesting to me is that at the same time Jack Nicklaus has a new course being built in Noblesville. Both being private developments, I wonder if they will hurt or help each other.

Of course, Hamilton Co being the hot area it is, it may not matter one bit.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: TPC, most important course in the last 50 year
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2003, 09:59:40 PM »
Tim Liddy,

Weren't more than the greens altered ?
And weren't most of the alterations done in the early life of TPC ?

I played with Pete when he was in the process of building Hilton Head, and the way he was describing it seemed pretty radical to me at the time, a major departure from what had been or was being built at the time.  I got the distinct feeling that its nature was a tribute to what he had seen, liked and learned in Scotland.

Was Hilton Head the first modern course to have railroad ties/sleepers as an integral part of the design ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt Kardash

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Re: TPC, most important course in the last 50 year
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2003, 12:56:39 AM »
Brad
I don't think you can put the 12th at TPC and the 5th at old marsh in the same boat.
The 12th at TPC is only blind if you hit your tee shot in the wrong place. I think it is a fine hole.

The pro's seem to love the course now...i guess that means Pete's orginal concept has been altered...for we all know that Pete is happiest when the pro's are complaining  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

TEPaul

Re: TPC, most important course in the last 50 year
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2003, 03:57:10 AM »
Pat Mucci said:

"I played with Pete when he was in the process of building Hilton Head, and the way he was describing it seemed pretty radical to me at the time, a major departure from what had been or was being built at the time.  I got the distinct feeling that its nature was a tribute to what he had seen, liked and learned in Scotland."

If that's true and I've sort of indirectly heard the same thing then that's a very important theme that should have been followed throughout the evolution of the golf course!

Was it? Has it been?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: TPC, most important course in the last 50 year
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2003, 04:11:54 AM »
Brad Klein said:

"On a more serious note, one original aspect of the course has been entirely abandoned - its rough, low-maintenance, scrawny sandy look. It was heralded as minimal maintenance in the early 1980s but has been turfed over completely."

Personally, I think this particular aspect of the evolution of TPC is one of the most important to note. Many who know the course well from the beginning have stressed this. David Eger (who lives in the area) made this point strongly over two years ago.

Maintenance practices can probably do a great deal more than most know or are willing to admit. All in all TPC has to be considered a totally manufactured golf course, and always has been considered that but with that an increasing pristine and immaculately maintained look throughout can only serve to really highlight that manufacturing--in both the overall feel as well as the details of the architecture. Pete Dye had to realize that. His originally intended rougher look had to take that into consideration as function as much as anything else.

In a way this is no different than the increased immaculateness of ANGC--and many other golf courses. On both courses this has to be a direction that is directly opposite to the way these courses were suppose to be--and to look.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: TPC, most important course in the last 50 year
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2003, 05:22:55 AM »
Tom

As I mentioned above, the waste areas at TPC were an idea of Pete's that just did not work.  To the pros they made the course easier--hitting off hardpan is easier for them than hitting out of rough--but much harder (and time consuming)for the hackers that pay the rent day to day.

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: TPC, most important course in the last 50 year
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2003, 06:14:28 AM »
"As I mentioned above, the waste areas at TPC were an idea of Pete's that just did not work."

Rich:

Really? As I recall when Pete's course first opened and was used by the touring pros they screamed bloody murder. Admittedly for many other reasons than the rugged look and the waste areas.

Perhaps you're thinking of when the entire course was ridded of that rough look and even the waste areas became well maintained.

So if you're saying the original waste areas were so easy for the pros to play out of and so hard for those paying the rent everyday then what has the course done to solve that problem now?

It seems to me it's created rough that's hard for the pros to play out of and probably ten times harder for the consumer/golfer to play out of than those original rough waste areas.

Not a very logical solution, don't you think?

And even with the type of rugged waste areas that originally were part of the course there's a lot that can be done to make those anything but a snap for the pros to play out of. Perhaps not much different than the way they originally were when Pete Dye first opened the golf course. Certainly one of the best and most effective ways to do that would be to interperse those waste areas with some natural and rugged vegetation as we can see on the early Pine Valley or the early Shinnecock, Cypress Point, Pebble Beach et al!

That's never to say that a pro or consumer/golfer will not find the occasional lie in those waste areas that might be hardpan and no real different to play off of than a hard mat but they will also find interpersed vegetation that is definitely not easy for anyone to play out of--and what will be accomplished is a certain "iffiness" in those rough waste areas that will be how they're intended to be. No golfer thinking clearly really likes to deal with that kind of "iffiness".

Quite unbelievably some will even label it "UNFAIR". Pete Dye never seemed to me to be the type of architect who was very interested in dealing with the subject of fairness and unfairness.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve_L.

Re: TPC, most important course in the last 50 year
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2003, 08:00:12 AM »
As a course for staging a tournament, the scrubby areas which yielded low maintenance were nearly impossible for a gallery to traverse...  I attended yesterday's 2nd round, and the crowds - particulary around the practice range, #3, #18, #9, and #17 are huge...  

I'm not certain, but I'd guess that much of the total manicured look comes from the need to allow gallery ease of movement...  Also, remember the bulkheaded 18th green seating have been replaced by the standard bleachers, and spectator mounds between 16-18, 9-18, etc have been greatly softened from their original state...

Lastly, and off topic - but yesterday I heard this tournament described as "Spring's coming out of Ponte Vedra's plastic surgeon's winter work..."  Sounds about right...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian

Re: TPC, most important course in the last 50 year
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2003, 08:47:31 AM »
The waste areas are easier for the average player too. You can really go after the ball since the club skips along the hardpan. If found that I wanted to play towards the waste areas for that reason. Its a clever transition of grades from the smallish ponds up to the fairways and greens which are well above water level. Great visual contrast too, which really reinforces his use of angles.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ben Cowan-Dewar

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Re: TPC, most important course in the last 50 year
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2003, 08:58:18 AM »
I have always thought that Harbour Town was the more important of the two, as it marked the beginning of a great transition.

However, in the years proceeding, how influential was HT? While TPC ushered in a style that was true revolutionary, and pointed towards a style that would be copied far more in the next ten years.

Therefore, Dye has the most important and influential courses, in his two designs twelve years apart.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jonathan Cummings

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Re: TPC, most important course in the last 50 year
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2003, 10:13:41 AM »
If a golf course is like a book with an introduction, a plot that gradually draws you in, a climax, and even a denouement then I think the TPC gets the edge over HT.  The flow of Sawgrass is superb leading you to a great cressendo of those final four holes.

JC
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Liddy

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Re: TPC, most important course in the last 50 year
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2003, 10:56:57 AM »
Nixer,

I think you are referring to Bridgewater Club in Westfield.  Yes, I am involved, visiting the site almost every day during construction.

Brad Klein,

I tip of the cap for your latest article on Augusta “Augusta’s layout has lost character”. It takes took a lot of guts to write a negative article about the shrine of golf in a national magazine that depends on ad revenue for its livelihood. It was right on the money.

TPC

Great art evokes emotion.  The TPC does this.  Other great golf courses start with a great site that immediately provides this strong emotion. That is why I think TPC is a notch above the rest.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »