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Mark_Fine

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Rising irrigation Costs??
« on: March 22, 2003, 07:58:45 AM »
Even if you are a "miniminalist" when it comes to course design, there isn't much way to get around the huge irrigation cost number, or is there?  

Most of us like firm fast conditions but that's a function of how much water you put on the course, and not necessarily the irrigation system itself (although the more sophisticated systems allow individual head control which can help, but those are even more expensive).  

Any thoughts on this topic?

Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2003, 01:28:28 PM »
Mark,

I am beginning to hate all the irrigation that's being put in on modern courses.  

I feel certain I've seen several projects where they could have omitted half a million dollars worth of irrigation and you'd never have known the difference.

However, it's a losing battle for an architect to complain about it.  Irrigation consultants and superintendents argue that bigger systems are necessary, and they're the experts on the subject ... most architects know very little about irrigation design.  

I've heard someone blame some of Apache Stronghold's problems on irrigation design and that is an outright lie.  We put our foot down there and wouldn't let them put in "perimeter heads" to water all the way to the edge of all 110 acres of turf ... our idea was to let the grass sort of fade off into the desert.  The problems at Apache are all right in the middle of the fairways, sometimes because of too much irrigation coverage ... no one is complaining about the edges.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2003, 05:20:19 PM »
Tom,
I like your concept but as you say, most owners want irrigation well out into the rough areas.  Not sure there is much you can do to reduce the costs.  
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

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Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2003, 05:30:48 AM »
Irrigation and drainage (whether the drainage is surface-oriented or taken away in pipes) are two aspects that, while up-front costs, are also tremendously related to future costs to take care of the course. An irrigation system may cost $1.5 million, but it might save $200,000 per year in energy, water and crew costs per year. So, if this $1.5 milion system costs 33% more than a lesser system which doesn't save energy, water or maintenence time, then it will pay for itself in just a short time.

Generally, however, simple is better always. Surface drianage will last longer and work better. A simple irrigation system with the proper (not too much) in bells and whistles will cost less and take less to maintain and operate.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Larry_Rodgers

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Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2003, 01:12:29 PM »
Yes in many cases Irrigation costs are getting out of hand. The easiest way to reduce costs is to build the golf course where mother nature will assist. I have often talked about the irrigation system being simular to an insurance policy. It is there to suppliment when rainfall is short.

As an irrigation designer we get many directional pulls: 1) the architect does not have the proper budget 2) The superintendent can not maintain quality turf, 3) the owner may not have the openning conditions as a competitive course down the road, 4) The environmental laws dictate hard edge due to water source or drift.

1) If there is not the proper budget, areas on the outside must give, many times when the outside areas are minimised the operator floods the center trying to get water to the edges. Investigate the use of tying more valve-in-head sprinklers on a station, when the cashflow of the course improves, additional controllers can be added for better control.
2) "Bells and whistles", this area can be greatly reduced and quite frankly can add 15% to the cost for all of the features that make the operators' life easier.
3) If the earth is moved it will need to be replanted with something, plan the revegitaion to be planted when there is the best opportunity for establishment or open later.
4) If the course will be using effluent water there is no way of getting away from expensive due to the regulations and shortcuts may be very costly if there is ever a problem.

How about some sweat equity from the developer? I am involved with a project in Northern (U.P.) where the course superintendent is hiring additional staff and renting trenching equipment to install the system with his staff. The budget is less than $600K for materials and rental equipment. The design is minimal with modified triple row coverage in the fairways, small heads on the tees and many quick couplers to grow in the areas disturbed but revegitated with native materials.

Budgets can be reduced with everyone contributing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

jim__janosik

Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2003, 08:11:23 PM »
Well said both by LArry and Forrest, also remember geography,
courses in the west need to have an irrigation system that "replaces" rainfall and put out .33 inches a night/acre in 8 hours. Courses in the east use irrigation to "supplement" rainfall. ALso PVC just went up 40%. Material pricing affects
the cost as much as bells and whistles.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2003, 08:15:58 PM »
Tom Doak,
I'm very surprised that you would say irrigation design has nothing to do with the problems at AS. If you can't get some kind of even precip rates, then your going to have wet and dry spots, which is exactly what you have there. I'm not talking about perimeter heads, I'm talking about the middle of the fwys. I'm no irrigation designer, but when I see a wide variety of spacing, while using the same heads and nozzles, I call that bad design, at least in the AZ desert.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2003, 08:37:48 PM »

Quote
an irrigation system that "replaces" rainfall and put out .33 inches a night/acre in 8 hours.

The newest trend is to water courses in six or less hours!  You have to wait a little bit after watering to mow, and that allows some time for the maintenance crew at high dollar courses to get far enough out ahead of early players that they never see the crew.

As Forrest says, the initial cost of having good irrigation is repayed quickly.  At today's interest rates, the annual interest cost of an extra $300K of irrigation shouldn't be more than $25K per year.  That's the cost you would probably need to put in the budget for an extra irrigation man to spread hoses out for supplemental water, not to mention the cost of wasted water.

The problem with no part circle perimeter heads is poor grass, especially between the cart path and fairway.  Also, if you use full circles near the edges, its surprising how poor coverage is even 30 feet from the head.  But, if you get it too close, the first cut of native is lush, while it gets sparser beyond irrigation coverage.  Thus, if you miss the fairway/play area by five yards, you can't advance.  Miss it by ten yards, and you have a good chance of a decent lie in sparser material....

I have always advocated coverage everywhere, as you can't grow in a course without it.  No rule says you have to run every head, every day, for the same amount of time through the life of the course.  Thats what computer programming is for!

To save costs, I used to say we didn't need to water in six hours, and we didn't need to put out maximum water in August in eight - we could extend the water window a few hours.  

My reasoning was that pump stations over 1800 GPM jump in price considerably, as does resulting pipe size.  Running similar math to what is above, the addtional  $150K for pumps and pipe of a 3000 GPM system would have interest cost of about $12K annually.  Figuring 50 rounds per hour at $75, you would break until you lost 7 hours of play.  Looking at it that way, in dry climates, you just can't win an agument against less irrigation.

Big systems seem silly in places like Philly, where local law limits irrigation to 15,000,000 gallons annually.  Designing a system to put out 1,000,000 per day doesn't make sense there, does it?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

jim__janosik

Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2003, 07:37:44 PM »
Jeff,

I agree with your anlaysis. Yet, here in CA utility companies offer better rates when you water in a tighter window say between midnight and 6 AM, as much as a 20% discount.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2003, 07:12:23 AM »
Jeff,

From PA I thought I would add a little info to your last comment since you Texans don't know much about the northeast.  About the only thing you guys know how to do is wage war and execute criminals.

In the Philly area we are under the jurisdiction of the Delaware River Basin Authority.  I believe they set a monthly limit on irrigation use, but the final limit is based upon the specific permitting process, the project circumstances, and is not based upon blanket critieria. I believe if you withdraw less than 100,000 gallons per day from stream or ground there is no special permit.  Other wise you must seek a permit, but they will not grant you more than about 250,000 to 300,000 gallons per day.  That amount works fine here.

I agree with the perimeter heads.  We set them about 10 feet outside the fairway.  They are opened up during grow-in, then adjusted to part circle once the course is ready for opening.  All areas outside the imaginary line that is 10 feet beyond the fairway line never again is irrigated, or fertilized.  Initially we seeded those areas in fescue, but because fescue is  a nonnative species, and the new endophyte fescues have been pinpointed as causing health problems in wildlife, we are going with a warm season native grass blend.  It does have fesue in it because some of these area will have to be maintained below 6" which only the fesue will survive, but everthing outside of that will assume that magnificent natural look you see along roadways and ranchland that is not disturbed.

Unfortunately, our irrigation systems have been very expensive.  About 2500 heads, $1.2 to $1.4 million with pump station, pump building, fertigation, wet well, and flume.  A lot of those heads are the small Hunter heads which we use around bunker complexes and to do in-out irrigation at tees.  I like the pinpointed accuracy of these systems because we can irrigate the fairway right next to a bunker complex, and not irrigate the bunker complex, allowing it to assume that stressed, brown look.  In the end with the extensive system we save on water, and we do not overwater areas wet areas trying to water dry areas.  Fortunately, we do not move much dirt or try to clear cut forested areas so there is tremendous savings because of excellent routing plans.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2003, 07:27:55 AM »
Kelly,

Pardon me if my Texas is showing.....but you sound like you might fit right in with the Dixie Chicks. ;)

We can form a mutal agreement society on irrigation, though!  Your experience is mirroring mine in the southwest.  I guess I thought the NE could survive with a little less sophisitication, but I have always said you need more heads to save water, as you suggest.  My info comes solely through the one project I interviewed for in Philly. (unsuccessfully)

Regarding those perimeter heads, do you have any problems doing free flowing fairway lines when your irrigation designer tries to stay with strict 80 foot triangular spacing, or do you change nozzles, heads, and spacing to fit your design?  You can imagine why I ask......

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2003, 08:43:42 AM »
Actually Jeff I was just kidding in my opening remarks.  I am from Odessa, 18 miles from where the commander in chief and the the commander of troops in Iraq grew up.  There is definately a no bullshit, use the big stick attitude in the water out there and the country should be glad for that.  You must have missed my rant about redanman displaying the French flag on his posts.  My support of Bush, and USA is absolute, and I am proud of what we are doing right now.  I think we should barbeque the fat little bitch singer for the Dixie chicks and feed a whole Iraqi village for month.  Just kidding, please do  not pummell me for advocating cannalbilism, or suggesting the Iraqis should be fed humans. Just kidding.

Yes, we do use different size nozzles and spacings to fit the fairway widths.  Our designer stakes everything in the field, and it has worked well.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

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Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2003, 08:45:39 AM »
Such as the rain defines where green patches of nutritious turf lurks in the valleys of ancient links of the Old Country, so too, does the sprinkling of "rain" from these man-made contraptions and mole dens of piping determine where such patches lurk in our modern links.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2003, 09:11:16 AM »
Kelly,

Well, I don't read every post here, so I did miss it.  I have worked on two courses in the Odessa area, and always wondered why the water tasted so funny.  I thought it was minerals, but now I know better. ::)

Our local professional hockey teams best player stopped for a intermission interview last week.  Just as he skated on the ice, the reporter asked him if he was watching the war, and he replied something like, "Yeah, we should get it over with quickly, and then send the Dixie Chicks to France"

I thought it was a good combination of wry humor and political comment, at least from a professional athlete, who aren't generally known for same. :D

Forrest,

Huh? ???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

les_claytor

Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2003, 11:50:45 PM »
Has any of the major irrigation companies built a head that doesn't leak?  I"m amazed at how the systems get more and more control, more and more gadgets with PC's, laptops, handhelds, etc., but the freakin' heads leak like crazy.

If they can build a Porsche SUV, then some irrigation manuf. can sure as hell build a new irrigation head that doesn't leak, or need all the solenoids pulled in the first 6 months.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2003, 06:45:24 AM »
It's very interesting to read what the supers and architects feel about irrigation design and irrigation use and application.

But from the everyday golfer's perspective many golfers are clearly demanding of architects and supers that the playing areas whether they be fairway areas or rough areas be consistent in their own separate fairway vs rough context.

Do I agree with that? Only by half. It would seem to me to be the ideal if the fairways could be irrigated only to produce consistency of turf surface and my preference would be for the consistency of firm and fast (natural rainfall permitting).

But in the rough areas I believe I depart from the expectation of most golfers. I don't really want to see rough areas maintained to consistency either through irrigation, fertilization or anything else. As Kelly Blake Moran mentioned above the architect, grow-in crew and super should strive to get those rough areas (what's off the fairway) established and maintained like what we sometimes see off to the sides of a road (as he said).

The course to watch for this ideal may be Hidden Creek. They're strenously attempting to get their rather wide fairways firm and fast and consistent and off those wide fairways they're attempting to establish fescue in the New Jersey heat--not an easy matter apparently--but they feel once it reaches that point of establishment it will work well naturally and on its own.

The overall idea seems to be just as I said--consistency of fairway with firmness being the ideal to strive for and off the fairways, inconsistency, iffiness, naturalness etc.

They also expect the various natural color transitions to be magnificent. And even at this point they do worry that the average golfer will understand this fairway vs rough thinking.

I can't say I blame them for worrying what the average golfer will think but I admire them for trying to send an important message about a great way for a golf course to be maintained and to be played!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2003, 07:05:40 AM »
TEPaul

I think Hidden Creek is right on except for the fescue.  If they are willing to let it go above 6" then it might be better to go with the warm season mix, Indian grass, little bluestem, big bluestem (farther out) canadian wild rye, virginia wild rye, and I am missing one or two, oh switch grass.  These are clump grasses, get tall, but you can find the ball in between (supposedly) and it is rough, just like rough should be.  But who am I to question C&C.  Ijust think the total fescue mode we have been in is not correct, it is not native to the area, and it does not give that upright look in periods of wet conditions, it lays down like a mat.  But, sounds like they have the right intentions.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2003, 07:17:28 AM »
Kelly:

When I say they're going to fescue out in the natural rough areas of Hidden Creek I really don't know if that might not be just a general description. They do know that it (fescue) isn't naturally indigenous so maybe they are into some kind of mixing out in the rough areas.

Those guys sure aren't proprietary about anything they're trying to do as far as I can see. I don't know much about grasses or agronomy but anytime I talked with them about it it seemed to me they were sort of trying for a "Darwinian" application of grasses out in those rough areas! So I suggest you put in a call as soon as possible to Jeff Riggs (super) at Hidden Creek. He's a good guy and I'm sure would love to talk to you about all this! If you told him you liked the "side of the road" look he very well might say; "me too".

And if you both agree on that then I wish you'd tell us what all is growing out there on the side of roads around here or else people like me will have to park our cars and go find out for ourselves!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2003, 07:19:24 AM »
Les,

Perhaps, but water containment is always an issue.  Some people wonder why a great architect like FLW always had leaky roofs, too.

I presume you are the same Les I shared a day with at SFCC in 1994?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2003, 07:24:19 AM »
Kelly:

I should also say that whatever it is that's the grass makeup off the fairways of Hidden Creek or off the roads of Pennsylvania, to do it in the rough areas of our golf courses is bound to be controversial. I do hear what some people say, no question of that. But what in golf architecture was of any real good that wasn't somewhat controversial?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2003, 10:35:46 AM »
Don M.:  Yes, uneven coverage within the fairways at Apache Stronghold is a problem.  But in Dr. Klein's SUPERINTENDENT NEWS article about the course the irrigation designer implied that the problems were over the part-circle heads, which isn't the case.  You and I know the truth.

Jeff B.:  Part of my problem with bigger irrigation systems is exactly that they're too complicated, so much that they overwhelm superintendents.  My best superintendent friend told me that 1/3 of his job used to be tweaking the watering times on the heads to respond to wet spots and dry spots.  Today, there are just too many heads to do that, so some superintendents simply punch the "on" button and blame any problems on the irrigation designer.

I agree that the irrigation system is a tool that gives the superintendent his best chance to make the golf course better; I just think that some tools have a lot of fancy gizmos that aren't worth the added cost.  I guess a lot of my gripe is more about the standards of turf that people expect nowadays -- wanting the rough to be a uniform color.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2003, 12:00:23 PM »
Tom,

I agree with you in that the customer expectations of uniformity in rough color is foolish. I also think you generalize the abilities of superintendants a bit too much. If an irrigation system is so complicated that the super can't keep up, he should sell his ownership on the need of an irrigation tech to lighten his load.(maybe this requires the super coming to that conclusion first!) I believe a fair share of supers are perfectly capable of tweaking their irrigation systems without devoting 20 hours per week to the task.

At AS, how was it that you put your foot down on the irrigation design and still ended up with uneven spacing in the fairways?

Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

TEPaul

Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2003, 12:44:32 PM »
It's ironic but it's beginning to sound to me reading this thread that the world's most sophisticated irrigation system just may be a man with a hose!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2003, 04:14:56 PM »
Guys,
If there was a less costly way to handle the water needs for grown in, could the cost on an irrigation system be significantly reduced?  What I'm getting at, is how much impact does the grown in have on the cost of the irrigation system?
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rising irrigation Costs??
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2003, 04:48:10 PM »
Tom,

My experience is that complexity is less a problem than it was several years ago, when the computer controls were first introduced.  At that time I had more than one superintendent blow pipe out of the ground and/or not get enough water out, rather than admit that they "didn't know a damn thing about computers."  Even today, I have one course where the original super left all the run times at grow in levels, rather than reset the times to something more manageble, and customers have complained that the course was too wet.

Mark,

The system is never more taxed than at grow in, using up to twice the normal water, but of course, not being limited to an 8 hour water cycle either.  Certainly, using above ground pipe and temporary sprinklers reduces permanent irrigation cost.  I have seen some grow in supers put five or six heads on wheels for easy transport, which worked well.  However, the cost of temp. irrigation and extra labor versus permanent irrigation is not that great a savings.  Thus, logic dictates just putting in the permanent.  The trick is, of course, not to use it all the time after installation!

I think the biggest problem with computer control is that supers can read every morning that they lost .25" of water to evapotranspiration, and can set the system to replace that amount.  Thats called the "checkbook method" of irrigation management.  But, in rainy climates, he/she doesn't have to replace the water fully, just as I don't replace my checkbook funds, and my balance sometimes gets close to zero.  I don't blame supers for not cutting it close, as they are protecting an investment, with serious consequences of dropping below "0", like turf loss.

However, if the plant has available water of 3" (a typical number in many soils) it will survive on 33% of maximum capacity, or 1" before going dormant, or dying, depending on species.  No super would cut it that close, but the roughs at least, and probably fairways and tees could be managed to drop to half of field capacity, or 1.5", in this example.

Thus, if the super figured on rain within a week, and was losing .25" daily, he really could  not water for 7 days, and the grass would survive, as field capacity would be 1.25" after that period, assuming the turf was to full water availablility before the cycle started.  That would be cutting it close, but he could also replace, say .25" every other night, meaning that after the week, his turf would have plant capacity of 2.25", and 1.5" after two weeks, assuming no rain in the meantime, still a survivable mode for the turf, but somewhat dry.

The beauty of the wet/dry cycle is that water availabilty is partially a function of root depth, as well as soil type.  Roots go deeper when there is no rain/irrigation seeking moisture.  Thus, watering less frequently improves the turfs ability to withstand drought.

I have read many theories, and some are now touting every night irrigation as better.  Larry Rodgers or someone who has studied it in more depth could probably explain why, but right now, I ain't buyin'!  Of course, in the desert, you can't count on rain helping you out, and in certain soils, like clays we have here in Texas, you can only put about .1-.2 inches out per night, and the rest runs off, so my theories definatly have to be localized by the supers.  And, depite our talk of the most modern irrigation systems, most supers will tell you that their system can barely put out what it needs in a night, so they are forced to underwater in technical terms for turf health.  or, older systems don't have even coverage, so some areas have to be overwatered to get proper water in other areas, ie, they don't have enough control to get the right amount of water to the roughs.

I agree that golfers and/or budgets sometimes force the superintendent ot abandon the mindset of managing water for health reasons only, in favor of managing for color.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach