Cypress Point's 9th Tee

[Mike Hendren]

I thought the back left section of the 8th green at CPC looked out of place.  Admittedly, it would be a work of art elsewhere!  I recently read (MacKenzie's Golf Architecture, perhaps) that the tee for the ninth was moved from its original location near the 8th green because of the inherent danger.  

Was the original 9th tee in the present location of the back left section of the 8th green?  If so, that would make the short 9th even shorter and the widened landing area near the green, admirably accessed by the Huckster's power fade, more visible as well as making the angle to attack a left pin less desirable.  In short, this tremendous hole would be even better.

Comments?

Mike

[THuckaby2]

Don't have any answers for you here, Mike but several CPC historians frequent this site so you ought to get an answer soon enough to this very good question... The thought of 9 tee where the back left of 8 green is now is intriguing, as you are very correct that it would bring that "strip" currently on the left of the fairway more into play, given the different angle... it would also enable those who can truly hit the ball far to reach the green easier, giving them even MORE to think about on a golf hole that requires a lot of thought even as it is...

It would make both 8 and 9 become fraught with danger of the real physical variety though!  I can see why the tee was moved, if indeed it was.

Side note re this wonderful golf hole:  my "power fade" is just weak enough such that reaching the front bunker (as Lou did on his 2nd try) is really out of the question... I can't hit it that far, not from the back tees... so for me there is a bit less thought involved then for the big hitters.  That being said, as you witnessed driver is the only club I can hit decently, so driver it is!  Hopefully leave it right in front of the bunker, as I did with you witnessing, and then that's a lot less difficult pitch than it looks...

TH

[GeoffreyC]

Mike- I think Tom summarized pretty well but for those who might want to see what he is talking about, here is a picture up #9 from the left side of #8 green and a view of the current tee as of two weeks ago.

[Mike Hendren]

Geoff,

Your gallery is still awaiting e-mails from you, your fellow lefty and Mr. 84 with photographs attached  Best damn day I ever spent on a golf course.

Regards,

Mike

[THuckaby2]

Great pics, GC!  What that first one really illustrates is the additional choices that such a tee change would allow - one could very viably go right back down 8 fairway (left side), which would be a fine angle to a right front pin (if one didn't just blast away - it is a tight shot with a lot of trouble)... then the other choice would be right side, current 9 fairway, which would be better for a top left pin....  All of this still exists, it's just is muted a bit where the tee is now.

Of course you can also see the obvious physical dangers involved... god help the folks coming up 8 fairway!

TH

ps - that second pic does show a couple studs standing on 8 tee... and oh yeah, there's a fine green in the background too.. the recently re-done 13th.

[GeoffreyC]

I don't see any reason to ever go up #8 (on purpose) to #9 green.    Wouldn't the next shot have to cleat the dune and left greenside bunker and teen stop befor the right side dune? And the green slopes wickedly from top left to bottom right.  Otherwise an easy shot.

I thought the studs were on the 9th tee.  Were you looking up at the 8th tee with Mike discussing the option of playing up that way?

[GeoffreyC]

Mike Hendren- let me know if you want a bunch of photos and I'll get tehm out to you ASAP

[Bob_Huntley]

Of the times I have played CP, I think I have less than two or three photographs of the course and players. Now guys, how about sending me a couple of the ones you like best...for old times sake.

Bob

[GeoffreyC]

Bob

I've just burned a CD with all of my photos from the trip.  I will put it in the mail to you tomorrow.  There are some Pebble Beach pictures as well as Bandon/Pacific Dunes.  None of our match from Pasatiempo however  

[THuckaby2]

The studs are on 9 tee - my bad!  Hasty typo.

And yes, we were contemplating the choices... yeah, that's it... no, I wasn't at all silently fuming about the world's stupidest down in 4 from 10 feet short of 8 green... not at all...  

As for the choice of going down 8 fairway, well... it wouldn't be the worst angle to a front right pin - that part of the green is at least somewhat flat.  Given it would really be a "no-risk" shot from this tee, I can see it as being viable... going right at all brings the right gunch into play... straight down 8 is an easy 5-7 iron into a HUGE area.... it would be the safest, easiest play from that tee, and given the angle isn't horrible, if you are gonna lay up, why even screw with the right side?

One other cool aspect of this tee - being up that much higher makes reaching that much easier... the temptation grows...

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

Yes, that's me listening to Huckaby go on about how he got down in four from the edge of the 8th.  Don't I look visibly enthralled?  

Seriously, I think we were talking about either strategic options or trying to determine how we were going to put enough backspin on our drivers to back them up on the 9th green, given the 40mph downwind scenario.  

As far as pictures, I just got back 250 of them from the trip last night, but now I have to figure out how to shrink them all down to email size and distribute them appropriately.  The first one I tried was 700+K, and could fill a small church.  

Interestingly, I managed to lose one of the three rolls of film I took at Cypress, and am now missing everything from the 8th hole through 13.  Huge disappointment.  

[THuckaby2]

Listening to me drone on is a fact of golf life in any round with me.  'Tis a weakness!  

Re 9, driving and HOLDING the green are always going to be two different issues... man, I can't see how it can be done to the top shelf.  In fact that ought to be the test of when golf has become too easy for great players:  when that shelf can be hit and held from the back tee.

Bummer re the pics, Mike... oh well....

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

I couldn't resist, given the bait.  

It was a blast, mi amigo, even though we had to put up with Lou's constant droning.    

[THuckaby2]

Oh yeah, that Lou is a regular chatterbox!  

'Twas great fun as always, my friend.  We shall do it again soon... I'll get out your way sometime, somehow I'm sure.  We need to settle the score at Jeffersonville more than anything else!  

TH

[Bob_Huntley]

Tom.

Everyone thinks that the ninth is a pushover, Bobby Clampett was on the top tier, fifteen feet from the hole with a birdie putt. Seventy-second hole of a long-ago Crosby, no score boards out there, thought he needed a birdie to win, when a par was enough. Three putted from fifteen feet, lost in a five way playoff later in the day.

Even with a wedge, the top part of the green is small, diabolically sloped and as hard as rock. When the spin does kick in, I've seen the ball roll to the bottom and off the green.

[THuckaby2]

Bob:

Oh yes, I absolutely understand how difficult this seemingly easy hole can be.  292 from the tips, simple pretty wide fairway at least for the first part... green just sitting there waiting to be hit....

But oh my are there terrors to be found.  There are MANY places where a tee shot will be lost forever... and as you state, the challenge really begins at the green.  Besides the very real difficulties on the pitch, on that back shelf, any putt above the hole has a very real chance of going all the way to the bottom... and putt from the bottom has to be hit just right or back to your feet it goes... It is one hell of an interesting green, with about the most pronounced tier I have ever seen.  But of course, a 292 yard hole SHOULD have a green like that....

I'd guess more 3's are made on 8 and 13 than on 9... is that true?  Just a strange impression I have.

All I meant to say re the pitch from below the bunker is it's not as terrifying in practice as it LOOKS visually.  To me it looks impossible... and from my VERY limited experience, it is doable... a normally stuck pitch shot played left of the hole will at least stop on the top shelf.  It's quite tough to get it close, but at least holding the top shelf seems easier than it looks... just keeping in mind how terribly hard it does look!
TH

[GeoffreyC]

That discussion makes my 3 foot uphill birdie to the back left pin sound really good  

[THuckaby2]

It WAS really good, Geoffrey - damn well perfectly played golf hole.  Well done.

TH

[Lou_Duran]

Guys,

I've been sicker than a dog since getting back, so my correspondence has suffered.  If you see in the news that SARS has been found in Texas, you may know the source.

I too have numerous digital pics of CPC which I can make available to the participants when I get better.  However, let me warn you that as bad a golfer as I am, my photography is much worse.

Mr. Huntley, if you would like a fairly comprehensive set of CPC pictures, I would be happy to burn them on a CD for you.  Just let me know.

Mr. Cirba, if once you learn how to downsize the files for email purposes you can send the instructions to me, I would be happy to email the pictures around.   Unfortunately, I am not a high tech guy, so I don't even know how to post pictures on gca.com.  BTW, your comments about my comportment on the course caused me to reference my handy dictionary.  I am now suffering through a severe relapse, so you probably won't have to worry about tolerating my obssesive droning any time in the foreseeable future.  And to think that I thought of you as the left handed Tom Weiskopf with a good personality!

For those who play CPC on a regular basis, using a wood on 9 (or going for the green on 16 for that matter) would only be an occasional thing when weather and ground conditions are ideal.  Getting the ball close to a back pin from the bunker is very difficult, and any shot hit without a firm commitment can result in a longer subsequent shot from the front of the green, or even further down the fairway.  My nice 7 there without hitting the ball all that bad gave me much greater appreciation of the hole.

#16 just annoys me off.  I know that couple of the guys in front of us made a par and a bogey playing down the left side.  In my and the following group only two pars were made (Huckaby and Strawn), both from just off the green.  If I ever make it to CPC again, do you think that I should play it safe?  I think not.

BTW, there is room to the right side of the fairway trees on #17.  My blocked tee shot gave me a fairly clear shot to the green with a gap wedge.  And on second thought, the tee shot on 18 is very quirky, but certainly achievable with a high drive.  From the landing area through the green complex, it is a very good hole, playing longer than the distance and the wind would suggest.  I think that the hedges protecting 17-mile Drive on #1 is more bothersome to me than the drive on 18.  Only Stanford's #1 tee shot and the subsequent walk through city traffic is more unusual.

[THuckaby2]

First of all, feel better, Lou!

Now re CPC....

I've yet to see anyone play it safe on 16, and I hope I never do.  On second thought, check that, I hope I do see such, cuz that would mean I've played there a bunch more!  
Seriously, who among us would ever lay up there unless we (a) really can't make the 210 yard carry, on our best shot; and (b) play there so much that the "once in a life-time, I made it over, if it goes in my picture goes up on the locker-room wall with the 6 others who've done so" thrill doesn't matter?  Sorry, I just can't see laying up there unless one or both of those things are true.

As for yours truly, jeez you're a stickler Lou... two inches from the green edge qualifies as off the green?  Hey, it was my one decent shot the entire day and I want full kudos.  I got it on that baby and it was the first time ever I kept it below the hole.  Given the wind we had that one was of the top 10 shots of my life.  

BTW, who made par going left?  I heard of easy 4's being made that way, but no threes....

And damn right there's room right of the trees on 17 - that's the garden spot my caddie told me about my first time there with JB, Gib, Strawn.  Takes a darn good shot to get there, but if you succeed, as you see it's a quite simple shot in... Remember how nutso I was going over your tee shot?  That is the best approach in - it's just very hard to get to.

Re #9, for big hitters I'd agree:  wood off the tee is only the right play if pin is front right.  With the normal top shelf pin, it just seems not worth it at all... even reaching front right isn't worth the risk, given that's 3-putt city.  For us players of more modest length though, with the trap unreachable, it remains a very viable play.  I know I've had pretty good success doing so anyway!  But then again, remember I can't reach the bunker... But come to think of it, while being in that bunker is a tough shot, well.... I don't think I'd HATE being in there either... One can get a lot of spin on that kinda shot, perhaps more than being 5 yards short like I was... hmmmm... the thought of being in that bunker still isn't enough to make me not hit wood.  But then again, remember my distances.

Now one final thing:  PLEASE don't tell me you're going to take the Goodalian approach and criticize the hedges in front of the first tee!  Yes, they're not perfect, but SOMETHING has to protect the heavily travelled 17 mile drive there... I guess it is sorta strange walking down through them, but to me they sure beat the hell out of what might be there!  And to say they block the view, well... perhaps they do if you're 3 feet tall!

[Mike Hendren]

Lou,

The tee shot at the 16th is no big deal .  Also, I suspect it is my lack of photographic skill that is reflected in your portfolio.

Regards,  

Mike

[THuckaby2]

Lou,

The tee shot at the 16th is no big deal .  Mike

Mike, it's obviously all in the club.  

TH

[TEPaul]

Looks like in an original routing drawing (although a number of holes were reconfigured during actual construction) the 9th was originally slated for about 300yds and from the routing map it appears there was plenty of room behind that (although I can't remember what it looks like back there now).

There's an aerial from 1938 in GeoffShac's book but it's from 6,000ft and I can't see any tee back there at that length. If there was one it should be evident even from 6,000ft as back then back there was just a mass of sand---so even a small tee should stand out.

[THuckaby2]

TEP - thanks!

Note it's only 292 now... so 300 from the tee closer to the 8th green seems right.  Who knows....

What's behind that green and tee now is one hell of a house.  Of course that wasn't there at time of construction, but it's gonna be tough to remove now!  

TH

[TEPaul]

"What's behind that green and tee now is one hell of a house.  Of course that wasn't there at time of construction, but it's gonna be tough to remove now!"  

TomH;

Oh really? Then you don't know me well enough. If I can get rid of that unsightly water tower around GCGC for Pat between sun-down and sun-up I don't care how big that house is--I can get it out of there no problem. I don't know where you live but if I do it I'll give you plenty of warning first so you can conveniently be somewhere farther away.

You know that 4,000 lb bomb they dropped on Bagdhad the other day? Well, I probably wouldn't need that much but you get the picture....

Hell, I might even be able to do it while testing that A-10 anti-tank "warthog" out of Willow Grove that Pat wanted to buy.