[JohnV]

Just got  my Golfweek magazine and among other changes, Yale is out of the top 100.

I'll leave the rest of the changes to others to report.

[DTaylor18]

John, you're killing me!  I'm chained to my desk today.  Any other interesting ones.  Friars Head?  Anybody elss have the magazine yet?

[JohnV]

Dan, since you asked, Friar's Head debuted at #11

[GeoffreyC]

John

I'm shocked that Yale with all of its fine restoration work has slipped off of the Top 100 Classic list for the first time since the list was initiated  

What's with those panelists? A properly restored Yale GOlf COurse should be a Top 25!

[ForkaB]

As a completely ignorant outsider (never played the track) is this not perhaps a "hissy fit" by the GW panel?  If you don't restore the course, our way, we'll show you!

Or am I being just too cynical, and the course has actually declined signfiicantly in quality over the past few years or so.......?  If so, those who have been there, how?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

I was thinking the same thing, but phrased differently.
Was there any editiorial review and alteration ?

[GeoffreyC]

Rich and Pat

The course at Yale has lost much of its architectural heritage over the past several years. I think that has been adequately documented.  When a classic and GREAT course worthy of restoration instead dumbs down its bold features in the name of fast play and maintenance then why should it be viewed on its past glory and history?

Review the GW list of factors in voting for classic courses and you will see that these factors count.

There are many other WORTHY courses that relish thier classic history and preserve it for players enjoyment.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Yikes.  Who's gonna be the first to "I told you so" to those in charge?    If Yale also fell out of the next GM rankings, then it might make some rumblings from within.

FYI, Yale was #81 in the last Classic rankings.

[THuckaby2]

So there are 10 better modern courses than Friar's Head?  I didn't think it possible.  I can't wait to see what these are...

Just a smartass comment to get me off of the evil total of 6666 posts, as noted by my ever-vigilant friend Mr. Gracely.  Take no meaning from any of this!

 

[ForkaB]

Thanks Geoff

From my relatively uninformed reading of the various Yale threads (particuarly the recent "Hanse" one) I got the impression that while things weren't going exactly to the liking of Brad and yourself, they were in fact progressing and that Yale was in fact a "better' course today than it was 2-3 years ago.  Was I misinformed?  Or, are there really 20 "classic" courses that in the past year have leapfrogged Yale in terms of quality (or, has Yale really leapfrogged backwards, as it were?).  If so, 'tis a pity.

[JohnV]

Rhic,  As I'm sure you know, the difference between the 50 and 150 is pretty small.  It wouldn't take a lot of votes to move a club out of the second 50 and off the charts.

Biggest movers of those on the Classic chart in 2003 were St. Louis which jumped 31 spots from 97 to 66 and Moraine which went from 64to 95 (-31 spots).  Hollywood came back on at 62, so it climbed the most, at least 39 spots.  Only change in the top 10 classic is Shinnecock from 5 to 3 with Augusta and Pebble each dropping one.

Biggest movers of those on the Modern chart in 2003 were Kinglsey up 34 from 56 to 22 and Hawks Ridge down 31 from 24 to 55 and Power Horn from 65 to 96.  Of course Friar's Head coming on the table at 11 was the biggest mover.  Dallas National debuted at 17.  Bandon Dunes passed Whistling Straights to move to #3.  The Golf Club and Muirfield Village switched places (7/8) as did Kinloch and The Honors (9/10).

[ForkaB]

Thanks, John

I really don't have a clue about the math behind these rankings other than to assume that it's alchemistic rather than scientific.

I just wonder why Yale, of which the conventional wisdom seems to be--top 50 World design, but down on its luck for the past 1/2 century or so--could fall so much, just when it is beginning to get at least some of the love and attention that it deserves.

Just call me

"Addled in Aberdour"

[Mike_Cirba]

Rich;

Perhaps because that love and attention has been bestowed by the architectural equivalent of having Lorena Bobbit and Jeffrey Dahmer as parents.  

[W.H. Cosgrove]

I would be interested in knowing the trajectory of Yale.  We have been told it dropped from #81 from last year.  But where has it been the last 5 years?  If it has been drifting lower then dropping off of the list wouldn't be a big surprise.  

As I understand the mathematics, a drop form #81 to #100 would require a very small change numerically(tenths of a point).  

I might also add that discussions in places like GCA and Brad's articles in GW could well add to the raters placing a more critical eye on Yale, further accelerating the fall

[JohnV]

Yale had been in the 90's (97 in 2002) for the three years prior to last year.  Took a pretty good jump last year that might not have been justified and now has fallen backwards.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Sounds like last year was the aberration, not this year!  

Giving credence to the quality ofthe list.  That could start a fight!

[Top100Guru]

John V;

Hawks Ridge will most likely be out of the Top 100 in another year or two.....really a average course, just has "superb conditioning" and a "lot of gambling".......other than that, it is not worthy...in my opinion.....

[klangone]

I think Dallas National appearing so high on the list is a joke.  I guess money spent on projects is the criteria for rankings by Golf Week.

Good to see Yale drop out....."what could be and what should be" should never be considered by the rankers.

[Mike_Cirba]

klangone;

Could you give us your take on Dallas National?

Both Lou Duran and Matt Ward have shared very positive reviews here.  What do you find wrong about the golf course and where do you differ from their views?

Thanks.

[Matt_Ward]

Maybe someone can explain to me how Yale was rated in the first place the last time around given the appropriate comments by Brad Klein. I mean the chronic situation of neglect has been ongoing -- right?

How does rewarding a course with such a high prior placement help motivate the powers-that-be that such a classic layout needs a true re-examination and recommitment to the roots of its most distant past?

P.S. klangone: have you played Dallas National? Can you please identify for me a listing of TF designs you believe surpass Dallas National. I'll be eagerly waiting for such a listing because there won't be many -- if any -- ahead of it IMHO.

[Nigel_Walton]

Gents, you Yanks have a unique facility with self-promotion. The quotes on the Dallas National website are simply priceless.  Was it Pete Dye who said (with tongue planted firmly in cheek), "Its the best course of its kind"?

From the website:

 

If Dallas National were the only course I ever designed
I feel I would have had a great career.
Tom Fazio


Dallas National is in the same league with the greatest courses
in the country, like Augusta National.

Alex Rodriguez, Texas Rangers shortstop and Dallas National Member

Many golfers will feel this is the best course I've ever designed

Tom Fazio

"many" golfers. Quite funny, actually.

I noticed that the Friar's Head website doesn't have any quotes or pictures available to the public at all. Perhaps some of the relative recognition of the two courses can be explained by this phenomenon.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Nigel Walton,

Do NLGA, GCGC, CPC, PV and Seminole have web sites ?

Since when is comparing club's websites grounds for establishing their relative architectural merits or recognition ?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Does anyone have the list? I know it comes out in the Feb 28 issue...

[klangone]

I think Nigel is defending the non-comments on the website.......at least that is my take.  

My thoughts on Dallas National......I do not like the "blowing your horn" comments on the website either.

As far as the course.....it is a man-made contraption ala Shadow Creek.  If you saw the land where DNGC is 10 years ago, you would have thought it was a dump...literally (Irving and the surrounding area is supposedly built on a waste dump).  It is by-far the biggest rip-off for golf in the great state of TX.  But I guess since it is a Fazio design, it is worth its weight in gold..........give me a Flynn, Ross, Park orRaynor anyday!

[Nigel_Walton]

Subtlety must be a lost art, Mr Langone. Your interpretation is correct.

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