[JakaB]

Part III---Major Identity Crisis: How Professional Golf Has Set a Dreadful Example in its Reaction to Deregulation.

Quoting from The Book.."Also discussed in this section is the death of the bunker in professional golf, the PGA Tour's failure to take advantage of the TPC concept as a way to generate exciting golf and the possibility that the Tour might create its own set of rules to restore shotmaking."  Three points I don't buy...how about you..

In the professional game..how bout the interest of the bland bunkers at Torrey vs the great bunkers at Riviera..you don't know whats going to be good one week to the next....how bout Maggart hitting himself in the bunker last year...dead...nope.

In the professional game..how does creating TPC courses in the classic vein as a way to generate exciting golf going to do anything but TPCize the rest of the nation....and you thought copying Augusta was bad for golf...

The Tour setting its own set of rules to restore shotmaking....trying to create another problem that doesn't exist...where was Chicken Little the last two weeks...at the back of the pack with Tiger watching the leaders make some shots....It has been a good two weeks on Tour.

[JohnV]

I haven't read the book yet as I'm too busy studying for Rules Workshop, but I'll comment anyway.

I think the problem that I see with bunkers on the PGA Tour is that they are made way too consistent to be true hazards.  Players would prefer to be in them than in the rough which doesn't make sense since a bunker is supposed to be a hazard.  As you might have heard John Daly say when asked about how well he played from the bunkers at Torrey Pines, they won't be the same when the US Open is played there as the USGA will dump a bunch of sand in them.  David Fay felt the same way about bunkers as Geoff and others do a few years ago and since then the USGA has been putting more sand in the bunkers than the PGA Tour does which makes the lies more difficult.

I don't know what to say about the TPCs so I skip them.

I can't see the PGA Tour instituting any new rules to restore shotmaking.  They are more tied to the equipment manufacturers than anyone, just check out pgatour.com.  Also, they want to see birdies, not bogies.  Sure Finchem made a little noise about the ball a couple of years ago, but he has been very quiet since then and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[JakaB]

JohnV,

I am confused about the bunker issue and how to solve the problem...the problem I don't think exists.   If Chicken Little is put in charge of the bunkers at any course in the country and he goes running around to all the members screaming..."The bunkers are dead..The bunkers are dead.." what good is going to come of it...Do we really need for the Future of Golf in America for every bunker on every course that may want to host elite players being deepened...the sand made softer...or just more difficult by any means possible.   Is that what Chicken Little wants....I hope not...bunkers are fun for me just as they sit even with my new technology.

[A_Clay_Man]

I have not finished the book either, but, could Geoff's reference to the failed tpc model intimate that the courses that they built focused in on the aerial (and housing) game, with all it's implied chocolate pudding. Versus building venues that don't play directly into the modern players game and built in areas that take advantage of mother nature, rather than demographics?

[hpembroke]

Nobody shapes shots away from and around bunkers, per se.  They shape their shots to come in from the fat side of greens.  The thinking is NOT "I want to avoid this bunker".  Rather, the thinking is that "I want the ball moving off the center or fat side of the green just in case I hit the dreaded straight ball".

Shivas,

I completely disagree with this comment 100%.  If you have watched closely the guys on tour, not on TV, but live you would have noticed they virtually go straight at every single flag on regular tour events.  The par fours are so short they seldom hit any club longer than a 6 or 7 iron into them.  With the current hot balls and Tour X shafts none of these guys "work shots" from the fat of the green.  Have you tried to work a ProV1x ball in the air with a 120+mph swing speed with say an 8 or 9 iron, forget about the wedges, you can't do it.  Its darts out there, especially with the lush, soft, flat greens.  The only green they see is the green light to rip it straight at the flag.  The don't even see the bunkers left, right, front, wherever they are, that would be negative thinking and they are trained from a young age to be positive.  They go through their routine and just pull the trigger and hope they, as Tiger says too many times, "execute" correctly and look up and "see the ball exactly where they want it".  If they do hit it in the bunker it was because of the lie or a gust of wind blew up!!!!

[JakaB]

I am really sorry more of you guys have not bought this book..It is really alot of fun and well worth the money...I have decided to start a endowment fund for the betterment of golf...The first five people that mail a reciept for the purchase of The Future of Golf in America that shows a purchase date beyond 2/25/04 to my address will recieve a check for the purchase price plus shipping...not to exceed $20 each.  To be eligible you must be a registered member of GCA...thank you.

Please mail your receipt to:

John Kavanaugh
P.O. Box 551
Lawrenceville, Il 62439

[Michael Dugger]

Phrase it how you will, the crux of Shackleford's biscuit is that hazard are no longer hazardous.  

I can't help but agree.

It's true, the PGA guys rarely fear them.  

Now does deapening them or adding more sand and what not make them fearsome again, well I'm not sure that I have the solution to the problem.  However, be things as they are today, about the only thing the pros fear is long rough and speedy greens.  

As much as I hate to say it, considering how badly Augusta has been tinkered with, I DO look forward to watching the Masters each year because it actually forces the players to consider strategy.  

Take the approach shot on #9
what to do about #13.....don't go long!
the 11th always scares players into staying WELL right.

But most of this has to do with the speed and tilt of the greens, nothing to do with the hazards.

[RJ_Daley]

JakaB, I saved you shipping because I bought 2 books on Amazon after seeing your generous offer.  So, it is only $14.95.  Have I gotten in on the first 5 to order it since your post?  Will you accept a copy of my receipt confirmation from Amazon?

I've been meaning to get Tom Doaks, "Anatomy of a Golf Course: The Art of Golf Architecture" as well as Geoff's newest.  I went to the site posted for Geoff's book when we first started talking about it, and it was trouble getting it to accept my order.  So, fortunate for me, I held off until your offer stimulated me to buy it today!  Then the free shipping if you get two books, and what the heck, I had to get Tom's book too...  Now I'm up to about 80 books on turf and design, including 5 previous from Geoff.  Barney, you and Mrs Bush have been very good for promoting more literacy in America.

[JakaB]

Good for you RJ...I will also accept copies of receipts faxed to 618-943-4149....If more people are so generous and thoughtful to save me on shipping...I may be able to extend the offer beyond the first 5 books purchased.  The current Barney endowment fund for the betterment of golf is capped at $100.00.  

[George Pazin]

That said, Geoff's point about strategy being re-created with bunkers doesn't cut it with me.  Even if you turned every single bunker on Tour into a horriffic, unkempt mess, those guys just arent' worried about them because they play the aerial game!  Nobody shapes shots away from and around bunkers, per se.  They shape their shots to come in from the fat side of greens.  The thinking is NOT "I want to avoid this bunker".

Don't you think if the hazards were hazards, they might actually modify their thinking to include "I want to avoid that bunker"?

If they were not dumbed down, you wouldn't hear guys bitch when they actually play tough bunkers in the British Open or when the course is setup with more or fluffier sand.

Jax -

I'm disappointed you never commented on my post in the first thread you originated on The Future.... I was hoping for at least a few insults or maybe that you cared enough to call me an idiot.

[RJ_Daley]

When I finally read Geoff's book, now on the way thanks to Barney, I will have to see the context of what he is saying about the bunkers, and TPC concepts to generate exciting golf, and tour rules...  Perhaps those things are different thoughts entirely on Geoff's part.

Up front however, I'm thinking he is speaking in bunker terms of the crafting and position relative to the contours and angles of the course, as Dugger seems to be saying.  Riviera still has not undergone contour softening on the greens and they are as they always have been.  Those well made bunkers in relation to angles and shots to falling away possible pin placements make the bunkers hazardous and stoke stealers at Riviera.  The same was seen at Royal Melbourne recently.  Daly's shot from the high right bunker to the falling away slope at Torrey was brilliant.  How many could have made the shot, and what was the percentage of that shot?  Even Daly advises that it may not have been so great if there were more and softer sand.  Not on 18, but Rees did soften some of the green slopes in the recent remodel at Torrey, or so Jim Allen told me.  

TPCing a course may be referring more to stadium venues only.  Tour rules must be referring to a tour ball...

[JakaB]

I want people to buy The Book...so I will just include one tidbit that boggles my mind in its lack of logic.  quotes from The Book follow in bold... Succumbing to Dumbing (Why Tiger will have a hard time winning more majors than Jack)

  It used to be that the shrewd golfer was rewarded for adapting to surprises or picking up local knowledge.  The creative player used his ingenuity to come up with original shots to solve unexpected problems.
  That's what was so refreshing and marvelous about Tiger Woods.
  He was a throwback in the mold of Jones, Hogan and Nicklaus, the all-time, mega-champions that he promised to equal or even exceed.  He still could end up bettering them, but if course setups continue as they have , he needs a lot of good luck. Talent, imagination and his determination won't be enough.

The sky is falling...The sky is falling...Tiger can't win without a lot of luck in todays game....His talent, imagination and determination have been squashed by the set up of todays courses....hyperbole factorialed.

[RJ_Daley]

JakaB, I have to admit, the logic is not apparent to me in those statements either.  Is he talking about future set-ups or design or both?  But, is that the whole context? When I get my free book, I'll see if I can figure that one out.  

I don't care if Tiger breaks all records or not.  I just hope to see a constant struggle between players of varying skills.  I love to watch the matches of cleaver and crafty tacticians VS big brute Goliaths.  Of course, Tiger and even Long John show they have the cleaver crafty abilities as well.  

When it comes to the rest of us, it still comes down to enjoyment.  What do you want to get from the game, a long drive with high tech or a well played round based on learning and improvement to make shots and putts?  Which kind of design and maintenance meld most promotes your future desires?

[Gary_Nelson]

I can attest to the perfect bunker mentality on the PGA Tour.   I played Warwick Hills a week before the '99 Buick Open and talked with a rep from the PGA tour who was measuring bunker sand depth.  He verified that the sand transitioned smoothly from a depth of 1" near the lip to around 4" at the base.  Such anal-retentive bunker certification tells me the PGA Tour doesn't want the players to have difficult shots out of the bunkers.   No fried-egg lies at this venue.

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