How good is Ohio's best

[David Wigler]

Save New York (And maybe California), I think Ohio clearly has the best top 7 courses in the country (And I mean depth from 1 to 7, not a top heavy list).  That is not the debate I want though.  I am curious as to what order the treehouse feels they should be in.  Mine is as follows:

1. The Golf Club
2. Inverness
3. Muirfield Village
4. Sciota
5. Double Eagle
6. Camargo
7. Canterbury (Could be replaced by Coldstream, Sand Ridge, NCR, or Firestone - although I feel that Canterbury is the best of the 5)

All seven are bulletproof top 100's.  Inverness moved up significantly in the last three years due to their tree removal program.  The Golf Club may be the perfect Midwest golf course.

[Scott_Burroughs]

David,

Have you played Brookside, Kirtland, and TCC-PP?

Do you mean Sand Ridge, instead of Sand Hills?

Have heard good things about Moraine, too.

[David Wigler]

Scott,

I have not played any of the three you mentioned.  It speaks to the depth of Ohio.

Of course I meant Sand Ridge.  I will change it in the orginal post.

What is your order?

[Chris_Clouser]

David,

I have played three of your top 7 and would put Camargo ahead of Scioto.  The other one I've played is Muirfield Village but that was a while ago and has changed some since then.  

[Mike Nuzzo]

Is Pittsburgh in Ohio?
If so then you've really got a hell of a state.

[David Wigler]

Is Pittsburgh in Ohio?
If so then you've really got a hell of a state.

?

What do you mean Mike?

[Doug Sobieski]

1. The Golf Club
2. Golf Club, The
3. TGC
4. Scioto
5. Muirfield Village
6. Camargo
7. Inverness
8. Brookside (Canton)

Toss up for #9- Double Eagle, Sand Ridge, NCR

Haven't seen Coldstream, Canterbury, TCC-PP, or Kirtland.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Scott,

What is your order?

Unfortunately, I have never set foot in Ohio, despite having been in 33 other states and playing golf in 22 of them.  Have never set foot in your state, either.    

Midwest-to-eastern Rockies and most of New England are my two biggest deficiencies.

[Todd_Joseph]

Can everyone see why we kicked Doug out of the state last year.  




Doug,

Send me an email sometime with your new address.

Todd H

[Matt_Ward]

David W:

My good man -- I'll take the bait and say I can make a helluva case with two other states -- Pennsy and the Garden State.

I would not automatically ascribe "bulletproof" status to all of the Buckeye courses you listed as top 100 guarantees. I often wonder just how much architectural heft there is with Double Eagle (great conditioning no doubt); Scioto is a mixed bag of different architectural influences; and Canterbury, while unique in certain ways, is really not in the same league as The Golf Club, Inverness, MV and Camargo, IMHO.

Pennsy would have a fine listing with the likes of --

Merion / East
Oakmont
Huntington Valley
Lancaster
Rolling Green
Phillie CC
Lehigh or Fox Chapel
Aronimink (I'm assuming the new version since I only played the former layout before the work of Prichard)

The Garden State would have solid representation with the likes of --

Pine Valley
Plainfield
Baltusrol / Lower
Galloway National
Somerset Hills
Essex County or Balturol / Upper ... other worthy candidates
Hollywood / Ridgewood E&W / Forsgate Banks Course or Montclair #2 & #4, Hidden Creek, Metedeconk National, etc, etc.

David, I don't doubt you're going to throw back the argument that Pennsy and the Garden State are too top heavy with the likes of Merion / Oakmont from the Keystone State and PV and Plainfield coming from Jersey. Nonetheless, the depth of courses in my home state and my neighbor to the west are quite solid and often a number of the courses I listed receive little, if any, real fanfare from those outside the immediate area.

Like I said my friend -- the Buckeye State would have a battle for the 3rd position.

P.S. I do concede without hesitation that The Golf Club is one of the ten best courses I've played in the USA and with that the finest Pete Dye course I've played.

[Todd_Eckenrode]

Would definitely place Brookside (Canton) in the top tier before, mostly for it's very unique greens.  Have seen pictures of Silva's great looking restoration of late, and it looks significantly better on all other fronts (not that it wasn't already good on all other fronts).  Should surely be in the top rung of Ohio when re-opens.  

[Dan_Belden]

Ohio is certainly right up there.  I think that Columbus,Oh is an amazing city for golf.  It is hard to rank them, but there is alot of good stuff.   You have courses left out of top 10 lists like Scarlet, Moraine, Columbus Country Club, The Country Club of Cleveland, Kirtland, Ed Sneads The Lakes has some good stuff, Fowlers Mill and Shaker Run are superb public courses.  Little fun courses like Ross's Congress Lake, and Shaker Heights.  Elyria CC, a Flynn course.  I think that Brookside, Canton will certainly be one of the very best after the restoration.  
  The top Ten in my opinion, with the top 5 probably interchangeable are:
1:  Muirfield Village
2:  Brookside CC, Canton ( post restoration)
3:  The Golf Club
4:  Camargo
5:  Kirtland
6:  Inverness
7:  Scioto
8:  The Country Club of Cleveland
9:  Cantebury
10:Moraine CC

Certainly you could fit Firestone North and South somewhere around tenth, you also have Double Eagle right there as well.  All and all as Tom Doak said," there are a hell of alot of good courses in Ohio", and some of them have gotten way better.  

[Matt_Ward]

For those in the know from the Buckeye State -- is it fair to say that the general consensus would be that the best course in Ohio is The Golf Club?

Dan -- you mentioned Muirfield Village and although I agree the course is first rate I have to wonder how much of a boost it gets from hosting an annual tour stop connected to the game's greatest player as compared the reclusive TGC?

[SPDB]

Where does Mayfield rank in OH?

[Doug Sobieski]

Matt:

I think that in the Columbus area the consensus is generally TGC at #1 and Scioto #2 (MVGC, Double Eagle, Scarlet follow in that order) when you talk to the people that get out and see a lot of good golf. If you talk to those that don't get a chance to play many of the greats in other parts of the country, it seems that they'll put Muirfield Village #1 because of the publicity that goes with the place. Plus, those in that group often have never gotten the chance to play TGC!!

SPDB:

At Mayfield there are a lot (too many) of quirky holes which are interesting (once), but overall I think that with so many strange holes due to an extremely hilly site it's a bit of sensory overload. If it were in Columbus, I think it might barely crack the top 12 in town (if you allow Longaberger and Indian Springs to be considered Columbus), but I can't even be certain about that.

Regards,

Doug

[marker]

Re:How good is Ohio's best?

Top 5 modern.  

[Tommy Williamsen]

Muirfield Village
The Golf Club
Inverness
Camargo
Coldstream
NCR
Scioto
The Country Club
Pepper Pike
Sand Ridge ( By the way the owners wanted to name it Sand Hills but were too late so they changed the name)
Double Eagle
Firestone South

[Dan_Belden]

Hey Matt:

  I can certainly see why some some, actually most would put the Golf Club ahead of The Village, but for me Muirfield Village is  a really great test of golf that makes me think all the time.  It has big wide fairways, but small angular greens that make you position the ball correctly if you want to score.  
  In my opinion there are simply no weak holes at MV, and I think at times people tend to dismiss the course for exactly the reason you mention , it does get a lot of publicity, and it is Jack's course, and it is very hard.
      It has a great set of par fives.  Starting with 5 and ending with 15.  It has oustanding par 4's with a tremendous amount of variety.  Think of 3 and 14, 2 and 18.   It is a great golf course, certainly one of, if not the best course in Ohio.  
  That is not to take anything away from the  Golf Club, which also is one of the very best if not the best in the State.  In some ways to me it is like comparing Shinnecock with National. The great tournament course vs. the great club course. That is simplifying the argument, but in essence this is what we are talking about.
  It think that the strength of Brookside, Canton after the restoration is the fact that it will be a fabulous test of golf for the expert player, and yet emminently playable for the higher handicapper.   But this is another subject all together.  

[Dan_Belden]

For those out there I would be remiss if I didn't mention the two public course at Mill Creek, and the delightful Youngstown CC.  
  Mayfield incdentally has some wonderful holes, but does have a few odd ones as well.  The fifth is one of the very best inland par 4's in the country.  It is both scenic, as it plays down into a valley, and very strategic with a creek down the right side, great golf hole.  Very good par 3's at Mayfield.  It is certainly worth a visit if you are in town.  

[T_MacWood]

IMO The Golf Club is the best course in the state. After it I would put a group of Camargo, Inverness, Muirfield Village and Kirtland. When Canton Brookside fixes its few blemishes I'd put it in with the group.

I love Mayfield, its more fun and interesting than 90% of the courses mentioned on this thread. Canterbury is excellent...as is Scioto, they've done a fairly good job of Ross-ifying many of Wilson's features. Country Club in Cleveland is not quite as interesting as Mayfield, Scioto and Canterbury, but has a lot of good holes and really no bad ones. If someone told me that Sylvania was the best course in Toledo, I would not disagree (in fact someone last week did tell me that). It is the most under appreciated course in the State IMO. The second most under appreciated course is Champions in Columbus (an awful name for such a classy course that was once known as Winding Hollow).

Some other very good courses that come to mind Moraine, Hyde Park, Westbrook, Congress Lake, Pepper Pike (mostly on potential), Zanesville, Springfield, Coldstream, Sleepy Hollow (a personal favorite I almost forgot) and Granville. Moraine is probably the best of that group.

Two modern courses from the heyday of Dick Wilson and RTJ's 50's and 60's--NCR and  Firestone-North (I like it better than the south). Firestone-North might have as much water as any course of that era and it was an era known for water. And NCR doesn't have single water hazard. Two unique courses from that time and I'm high on both of them.

There are plenty more I'm sure I've missed--including my home course.

[gookin]

What do people think of Scarlet?

[Matt_Ward]

Steve Lang:

I don't limit my choices to "exclusive courses" I simply assess the best. In some cases -- The Golf Club, specifically, will always be mentioned among the very best in the Buckeye State.

Clearly, there are a number of superb public layouts that can be included but as you can likely surmise the amount of public courses capable of even cracking the state's top 20 is quite difficult given the high architectural pedigree of the existing private clubs.

Dan B:

Enjoyed your theory of linking SH / NGLA to the debate on MV and TGC. Just my 2 cents worth SH is beyond MV by a good margin and I would rate TGC and NGLA as a flat foot tie.

TGC doesn't have the desire, and, I dare say ,the modern logistics to hold a Tour event or major but it clearly has the firepower to test the better players.

One other thing about The Golf Club I can remember the times I played the course when Fred Taylor -- the former OSU basketball coach during the glory days of Lucas, Havlicek, Knight, etc, etc was the GM there. Just having the opportunity to chat with him about those glory moments and to see the pictures of all those great Buckeye b-ball teams was something I won't forget.

[Mark Studer]

After looking through this subject; Has this group not played Kirtland? The  place is fun and challenging.  The last nine holes are nothing less than awesome. The par 3 11th(225-235yds.),  angled across the stream and the other 3  par, 17, is  scary good. The undulating putting greens are where the work begins at Kirtland. Good luck two puttting  15,16, &17. Riding up their motorized incline trolley to 18 tee gives you time to ponder  some  recent 3 putts.

[David Wigler]

Mark,

I have not played Kirtland

[Tom_Doak]

There are indeed a lot of good, even excellent courses in Ohio.  But, there isn't a single one which I want to jump on a plane and go see next month.  To wonder if California's top seven stack up with Ohio's is silly.

Double Eagle is certainly not a bulletproof top 100 course.  I believe it's on the way out ... I'm surprised it's not out already.  How many holes at Double Eagle have you ever discussed as great holes?  More than half of its reputation was based on conditioning, and the standard of other courses has risen closer to its level.

The top seven in Pennsylvania are better than the first seven anyone has listed for Ohio so far.  If I knew enough to do the top seven in Massachusetts, I'd guess it would be close, too.  I can't rate the top seven in Michigan for personal reasons, but I'd rather play High Pointe than Coldstream or NCR.

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