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Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Which holes should never be copied?
« on: February 24, 2004, 08:15:33 AM »
To run alongside Tom's thread on holes deserving to be copied, can I coaxe your opinion on which well known holes you think are dead ducks, should never be replicated and why?

Don't pressure yourself to think of 18 - I mean, we do have other things to do, but I'm sure your views will be entertaining.

Here's three for starters.

Par 3

#16 - Carnoustie.  Blah!! 250 yards.

Par 4

#10 - Belfry.  Great hole for three days a decade - but a 9-iron lay up?

Par 5

#17 -  Valderrama.  Candidate for the most revised hole ever and it still doesn't work.


Over to you.  I'll add more if I can think of good ones.

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James Edwards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which holes should never be copied?
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2004, 08:33:06 AM »
#17 Valderamma
#17 Valderamma
#17 Valderamma

@EDI__ADI

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Which holes should never be copied?
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2004, 08:35:31 AM »
Two of my least favorite holes of all time are two of the most oft-repeated:

the 17th at TPC Sawgrass, and
the 15th (I think it was) at Loxahatchee -- that button-hook par 5 with the peninsula or island green, which Nicklaus built on twenty courses in the eighties.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Which holes should never be copied?
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2004, 09:22:35 AM »
William Flynn's 9th hole on Philmont North (the only outright BAD hole I've seen from him)

Mackenzie's 16th at Pasatiempo - Drive blindly over a hillside to a right to left sloping fairway towards the barranca, then attempt the uphill 2nd from a downhill lie to a green with three terraced levels, death long and right.  There should only be one of these.  


mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which holes should never be copied?
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2004, 09:28:43 AM »
 Mike Cirba
    I certainly agree with #9 Philmont  as it is today.I wonder if Flynn designed and built it differently.

    Any par four at Aronimink---already been copied several times on that course.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2004, 09:33:20 AM by mayday_malone »
AKA Mayday

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which holes should never be copied?
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2004, 09:29:12 AM »
Mike
Speaking of Philmont North, how about the 18th? Perhaps the worst closing hole in the Philadelphia area.

Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which holes should never be copied?
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2004, 09:31:03 AM »
 #10 -Merion-I imagine the old hole across the street may have been better.
AKA Mayday

Mike_Cirba

Re:Which holes should never be copied?
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2004, 09:51:18 AM »
Steve Shaffer;

If you look closely at the routing of Philmont North, you'll note that Flynn got stuck with a really thorny problem.  The South course had already been built, and to get from the clubhouse to the really good land beginning on #3, he had to traverse some narrow, sharply-side-sloped ground.

Thus, you have today's 1st (not too bad...a dogleg against the slope) 9th (ugh), 10th (just ok), and 18th (agreed that it isn't very good).

But, man, from #3 on, and especially on the back nine, there are some fabulous and under-recognized holes out there!  

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which holes should never be copied?
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2004, 10:08:31 AM »
Mike
I agree that 1,9,10 & 18 are the weak holes at Philmont North. I know that the club is going through a gradual deforesetation program to help the grass, greens and teeing areas. There's not much that can be done with 18 given the slope of the land nor is there a groundswell of support among the members to do much there. 2-8 and 11-17 there are classic holes.
Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which holes should never be copied?
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2004, 10:08:48 AM »
 Mike
   I feel the same way about Philmont"Get me away from the clubhouse and i love the course."
AKA Mayday

plustwos

Re:Which holes should never be copied?
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2004, 10:58:56 AM »
Tom Doak

Do you ever miss an opportunity to express your dislike of anything that Nicklaus does.   I have read on this board where you haven't played Nicklaus courses in the past ten years, yet you know of 20 courses with that identical hole.
I have played many Nicklaus courses, including #16 (not 15) at Loxahatchee, and I haven't seen this replication of the so-called button-hook Par 5 to an island or peninsula green.  So back up your outrageous statement and list 20 Nicklaus courses that have that hole built in the 80's.   What do you mean by button hook?   Do you not like the strategy or is it because of the level of your game, you can't understand the strategy?  I understand, and like the golf hole.  Just because you don't, does not make it bad design.
I have only read this board until today and I understand that you are the board's resident guru, but it really is tiring to read your constant self proclaimed superiority over almost anything  other architects do.   You apparently are a fine architect but you don't need to constantly step on others to build yourself up.   Stop with the self absorption already.  
This will be my one and only post on this board.   It is much too biased toward certain designers and obsessed with "oldness", whether it is good or not.  

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which holes should never be copied?
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2004, 12:13:28 PM »
Wow!!!

Tom must have struck a nerve
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which holes should never be copied?
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2004, 12:20:30 PM »
Pete Dye has done a few of these ultra blind par 4's where you can not see the green, nor the pin. I think he has one in SC and one in Florida, sort of the Lahich.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which holes should never be copied?
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2004, 12:51:40 PM »
I have only read this board until today and I understand that you are the board's resident guru, but it really is tiring to read your constant self proclaimed superiority over almost anything  other architects do.   You apparently are a fine architect but you don't need to constantly step on others to build yourself up.   Stop with the self absorption already.

What a crock.

Why don't you come out of your hole and tell us your name, plustwos? You might -- like Tom Doak -- earn some respect here, if you did.

(Before we proceed: Tom Doak is not my "guru." I've never met the man. I've never played one of his courses. I have read "Anatomy of a Golf Course," but not the Confidential Guide. Otherwise, I know of him ONLY through his posts here -- which, like those of a number of other contributors [some of them architects, some of them not], I have found consistently cogent and educational.)

Riddle me these, plustwos:

-- Do you think Tom Doak is "stepping on" Pete (and/or Alice) Dye with his comment about TPC 17?

-- Where is the evidence of Tom Doak's "constant self proclaimed superiority over almost anything  other architects do" and "self absorption"? A man beset by the vanity you ascribe to Tom Doak would give all of his own courses a 10, and would give a 10 to no one else's. Neither of those things is true.

-- How is Tom Doak to answer the question posed by this thread without "stepping on others"? (Oh, I suppose he could say: "None of my holes should be copied, because they're all such brilliant originals that no one can even understand their genius, let alone replicate it." THERE'S self-proclaimed superiority, plustwos.)

Keep telling it as you see it, Tom Doak.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2004, 12:52:11 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

James Edwards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which holes should never be copied?
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2004, 05:21:43 PM »
Dan,
Fine response.

If we can have a TDoak, GShack'/LShack', FRich' amongst others, posting on this forum, we are all benefiting..  Im sure I echo 99% of the members.  

@EDI__ADI

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which holes should never be copied?
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2004, 01:22:57 AM »
Robin,

I have to take issue with your belief that #16 Carnoustie should never be copied.  As I got my first ace ever there, and my lifetime average on the hole currently stands at 1.5, I'd like to see an exact copy on every course in the world ;D ;D ;D ;D


I'd have to toss in my vote for #17 Sawgrass as well.  That hole put island greens on the map and made it a bullet point for any high budget design for the next 10-20 years.  Yuck.  If you have to copy a par 3 from TV, it is much easier to do a version of #16 ANGC with enough variety that you don't get so bored.

At least my home course's double island green was built in the 50s so it can't be blamed on Sawgrass.  Anyone know if Robert Bruce Harris did any other island or double island greens or was this one truly just a case of making the best use of the land?

I'd also vote for whatever the prototypical short drop shot par 3 was.  I don't know where it was that made everyone think a course isn't a course without finding a way to work at least one in, but whatever hole that is, I'd like to nominate it!  I'm so sick of hitting wedges off a cliff!


How about holes that cannot be copied?  I don't think holes like Cardinal or Himalayas on Prestwick or Pit on North Berwick could be built today, and if they were it would just look silly.  The Road Hole can't be copied both for that reason as well as the fact it would just never work as well as the original (I've never played NGLA's version, but unless I ever get the chance, I will be extremely skeptical is it anything more than a pale shadow of the real thing)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

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