Pennsy's 3rd Best Course ?

[Matt_Ward]

Given all the folks who hail from Pennsy that monitor GCA closely I'd be curious to see what course they believe (and others) garners the 3rd best position from the Keystone State?

Clearly, one can argue until the cows come home on whether Merion / East or Oakmont is 1 or 2.

One course that I would not name is the Grace Course at Saucon Valley -- it would not make my personal top ten from Pennsy. I wonder though -- would the 3rd best course come from the Phillie area or the Steel town locale?

If I had to make a choice I would say Huntington Valley is my call although I also really enjoy Fox Chapel as a very underappreciated gem.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:  I don't know which of the courses around Philadelphia I would pick -- Lancaster, Huntingdon Valley, Manny -- but there are a bunch of them I'd pick before Fox Chapel.

[TEPaul]

Not that this is ranking system but the Pa Golf Association has a basic East, West, Central annual rotation and the Board of the association has traditionally been populated to ensure the quality of that rotation. This generally concentrates on  the state amateur and the state open.

In my experience this is probably the way I'd say this East, West, Central rotation is viewed as to priority.

EAST:
1. Merion
2.HVGC
3.Rolling Green
4.Stonewall
5.Saucon--Grace
6.Scranton

WEST:
1.Oakmont
2.Pittsburgh Field Club
3.Fox Chapel
4.Laurel Valley
5.Butler
6.Lake View C.C.

CENTRAL:
1.Lancaster C.C.
2.York C.C.
3.Bent Creek
4.Moselem Springs
5.Berkshire C.C.
6.Harrisburg C.C.

I've never seen a state amateur or state open at Aronimink, PCC, Manufacturers Lehigh, Sunnehanna---all I've seen at those clubs are qualifiers for the state amateur or open. If anyone at those clubs is looking in it's about time to schedule that state amateur or open! Are you there Mark Fine?

[BCrosby]

As to things Philadelphian, I defer to TEP, Wayne M. and Mayday, but goodness gracious, doesn't Aronimink rate at least a top 6 in the "East" rankings?

I think it is an astonishingly good Ross. Plus the restoration work there is among the best I've ever seen. Does The Mink suffer among Philly guys because they remember its unhappy prior incarnations?

BTW, I agree with your high ranking for Rolling Green.

Bob    

[mike_malone]

 Matt
    I think many of us here in the Philly area think our comments would be self-serving,so maybe that is why the comments are few.

[TEPaul]

redanman:

That's not a ranking, it's basically the rotation of the PA Golf Association in the East in relatively recent years for their amateur and open. It might even be safe to say the PA Golf Association doesn't much care what you think are the best six golf courses in the East side of Pennsylvania.

[TEPaul]

Bob:

Aronimink would be on my list of one of the top six or less in the East of Pa. But I'm just saying they haven't held a Pa Open or Amateur in the years I've been here that I recall. They did hold the Eastern qualifier for the State Amateur about 12 years ago, though. That year the Pa Amateur was held at Merion East.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

I never said Fox Chapel would be my choice for 3rd best Pennsy course. I just really enjoy it and for the Raynor fans who gush on and on about Shoreacres maybe a few of them should drop by the Pittsburgh area and see what it offers. In my mind -- I'd take Fox Chapel ahead of Shoreacres.

There's no doubt that after the first two picks (Merion / East and Oakmont) the competition begins to intensify. Clearly, the greater depth of courses is in the Phillie area and picking one out of that mix would be a challenge. What's also interesting to note is that after the big two the drop-off appears to be quite significant although the courses usually named as being fairly close (e.g. HV, Rolling Green, Lehigh, SV, Lancaster, Ph CC) are usually grouped very close to each other.

I have played Huntington Valley a few times over the years and I'm frankly amazed it gets so little attention outside of the immediate area. The architecture is very good -- ditto the terrain -- and the course rarely, if ever, suffers foolish plays.

As an FYI -- I have not played the second 18 at Stonewall so I can't comment on the course thus far.

TEPaul:

Thanks for your posting of how the courses are rated -- opps I forgot -- it's not your ratings as you are generally opposed to such silliness.

To the rest of you Pennsy golf inhabits ...

C'mon -- have a little courage -- who cares about self serving comments -- generally they are the best and honest kind!

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul:
Thanks for your posting of how the courses are rated -- opps I forgot -- it's not your ratings as you are generally opposed to such silliness."

Matt:

That's not how the courses are rated or ranked that I'm aware of---that's how the Pa Golf Association's rotation has played out in recent years. The Pa Golf Association tries to hold their state opens and amateurs at what they consider the strongest courses in the state.

Yes, you're right, generally I do consider state rankings silliness.

[Jim Franklin]

I am a Baltimore guy, but play in Pennsy fairly often and I have to go with the following:

3. Aronimink
4. Philly Cricket
5. Laurel Valley
6. Huntington Valley
7. Philly CC

PS: Oakmont is numero uno.

[Matt_Ward]

Mr. Hurricane:

Aronimink #3 Really. Talk about a one-dimensional course but to be fair I have not played it recently so maybe it deserves a closer consideration given the work carried out which many have opined is quite good.

Laurel Valley as a top five? I wonder if the exclusiveness has a role to play there. The layout is truly second tier -- unless one happens to be a big time Dick Wilson fan.

I'll still put HV up there in my #3 position.

[BCrosby]

Matt -

The Phillie mantra you hear about Aronimink is that it is "one dimensional". I don't get it, unless you mean one great hole after another, ho hum.

The front nine is as good as any nine holes by Ross I've played. Not a mediocre hole in the bunch. There are some long par 4's on the back that have somewhat similar yardages, but, boy, that's being picky. I'm not a huge fan of no. 17, but I understand a lot of RTJ was left there.

The Ron Pritchard restoration is masterful. The best I have ever seen. Superb bunker work. Wonderful blending of green surrounds with contours.

I think the sins of the previous versions of The Mink are still visited on the current course. Happily, I never saw the old versions, so I saw the current layout with virgin eyes.

Bottom line is that Ross was right. He intended to design a championship course and he was " more succeessful than he thought".  

After the usual suspects, The Mink deserves a very high ranking. Next time you are over that way, play it again. I think you will be impressed.

Bob

[TEPaul]

In my list of six in the Pa Golf Association State Open and Amateur rotation I completely forgot about Philly Cricket in the EAST. Knock one out and put Philly Cricket in there by all means!

[TEPaul]

Bob Crosby:

Perhaps you're right about Aronimink. The course's reputation did go down a good time ago after the club got into one redesign after another of that Ross course---RTJ, Dick Wilson and the Fazios. Now that it's been well restored to Ross by Prichard perhaps its reputation is coming back for that reason. I'm in no way referring to the opinions of Golfclubatlas. I live here, very near Aronomink, and it's favorable reputation seems to be returning from all quarters!

Maybe something really is going on out there these days--maybe these well-known redesign Open Doctors' time has come and from all quarters! It wouldn't surprise me and it's about time. A couple of Tour pros just recently said some things about how R. Jones had completely ruined a perfectly good golf course. They were speaking of Torrey Pines!

[Jason Mandel]

I have not seen any courses west of Harrisburg, so I can not comment on the Western half of the state.

Gosh, this is  a really tough question.  I'm going to say the 3rd best course in the state is Lancaster.  I would then say Philly Country Club, Huntingdon Valley, Cricket Club, and Rolling Green would be in there as well.  But like many on this site have said before comparing the various Flynn's and ranking one ahead of another is almost impossible to do.

Aronimink is very good, very long but very good.  I get goosebumps when I walk Philly Cricket, it is just that classic to me.  One of the few Philly courses I haven't played is Gulph Mills, but I am suprised not to hear this mentioned from everything that I have heard.

Stonwall 1 needs to be mentioned as well.  

THis is too tough, stop asking these tough questions!

[TEPaul]

redanman;

I'm getting a little more down these days myself on Fazio and his ongoing classic course redesigning or restoring or whatever the hell else he's calling his latest attempts on classic courses this year but he didn't obliterate Flynn at PCC or even touch it as far as I know. All he did do at PCC about ten years ago is add another nine that'd once been planned there to bring the course up to 27 holes. The only other architect PCC let really touch that golf course is Perry Maxwell, and as we all know that's OK. Better than OK actually!

The Fazio nine has basically never been very well thought of by the club and I believe I heard they were thinking of doing something about it. Unfortunately, the club has spent a bunch of money on other things recently. I think the club should bring in one of the really good restoration architects  out there today (Flynn restorers) and let them do a complete FLYNN REDESIGN of Fazio's original additional nine at PCC. That'd be an ironic switch, wouldn't you say!  

[TEPaul]

Yeah, but Fazio didn't obliterate any Flynn features--he didn't touch any of them---all Fazio did is add another nine on land the club once intended to use decades ago but never did. So where's the Flynn obliteration by Fazio?

[Jim Franklin]

Matt, like Bob said the restoration has been very well received. I played it once before and once after and really like the finished product. As for Laurel Valley, maybe the exclusivity had something to do with it, but I enjoyed it immensely and sticking by my #5 pick( nothing against Huntington, just a notch down).

[TEPaul]

redanman;

PCC was probably never thought of in the top 5 in this district anyway. No real reflection on PCC---there're just some other really good golf courses around here. PCC is a good course though, but because many might say it isn't in Philly's top 5 some people start to feel somebody's saying something is wrong with PCC. This is precisely why I think this ranking crap is crap!

[TEPaul]

"Laurel Valley as a top five? I wonder if the exclusiveness has a role to play there. The layout is truly second tier -- unless one happens to be a big time Dick Wilson fan."

Matt:

I doubt Dick Wilson would recognize Laurel Valley and not just because he's dead!  

[Jason Mandel]

there was a great thread on here back during the Women's AM about Philly Country.  I recall many stating that the new restoration had certainly beamed the course into the Top 5 in Philly, we even had Chet Walsh on here defending the course.  I certainly put Philly Country in Philly's Top 5.

[Big B]

What doesn't Sunneybrook ever get mentioned and what about the new course at the Cricket Club?

[Jason Mandel]

Sunnybrook is a good course, but thats about it.  I certainly would not put it in the top 10 in Philly.  I have played there a lot and used to caddy there, there have been many changes to the original Gordon design. What Sunnybrook does have is a great atmosphere and great experience.

You will NEVER wait to play at Sunnybrook, you will never need a tee time, and most days will have the course pretty much to yourself.  Its an easy course to walk, but by no means is it flat.  

The new course at cricket club is not mentioned because I would not put it in the Top 20 in Philadelphia.  It is a good enough course but I think the fact that the course is connected with the Old Course is what really hurts the course.  If it were its own private club located a few miles apart I may feel  a little different.  It is a typical Hurdzan and Fry course.  It was such a good piece of property that it just makes one wonder what Doak would have done with the place had he won the contract, since he was beat out by Hurdzan and Fry.

[mike_malone]

I cannot speak for courses outside Philly,but i think the hairs one must split to grade Lehigh,Huntingdon Valley,Rolling Green,Philly Country,Philly Cricket,Gulph Mills,and yes even Merion are too microscopic for me.It seems to come down to taste.I am very grateful to play Rolling Green and feel no need for a substitute.

[gookin]

Matt,

Thanks for your kind words about Fox Chapel.  Lots has been done in recent years to recapture the architectural integrity of our Raynor course.  While we have work left to do, Brian Silva has created a group of Raynor junkies out of our membership.  We will host this year's PA Amateur and we believe our course will support an exciting competition.

While it may not be reasonable to get the #3 ranking in a state with so many fine courses, our real goal is to make our course the best that it can be.