[James Edwards]

Mike,

Thats good to hear.  

Fortunately enough, the course wins every time.... the length of the ride to 10 and 1 is worthwhile.

J

[Robin_Hiseman]

Just to satisfy Rich Goodale's wise and gentle suggestion about avoiding the "chat" I really can't stand, can you share what makes you interested in the subject of cart golf?

What do you see happening with carts in your part of the world? Is the resistance to carts over there breaking down?

Tim

Tim

As my third post mentioned, I am interested in the way in which carts have influenced the evolution of golf course routing.

In my part of the world (UK) cart courses are still a rarity.  Our culture is to walk and I for one much prefer to walk, even if a cart is provided (it can carry the clubs).  Most clubs now have one or two carts available for hire, but it is rare to find legions of them lined up outside the clubhouse.  Almost without exception, the courses where you do find this are American designed.  This isn't a criticism - just an observation.

A common problem where the two cultures co-exist is that the majority who prefer to walk come up against a design that assumes the cart is being used.  Consequently, a number of serious hikes entail.  The Monarch's Course at Gleneagles is a prime example.  Still, most of us could do with the exercise.

Golf is a game that is meant to be played at walking pace.  I just find that the cart deposits me at my ball before I am mentally prepared to play - and deprives me of a chance to absorb the scenery.

I cannot foresee our courses converting en masse to the cart - there's no need to in truth, as most of our layouts fit together quite nicely and remain a pleasant stroll.

I don't object to carts.  In hotter climates and for the physically impaired they are a godsend.  I just don't think that they enhance the experience, even though without them the experience may not be possible for some.  Does that make sense?

I am prepared to stand corrected if you feel inclined.

Robin

[Tim Taylor]

Mr. Benham:

I can proudly say that I have walked up that path from 9 to 10 at Wente - just got sick of waiting for our ride to show up, one time with some die-hard walkers known to this site (who will go nameless now to protect their reputations.

Damn right re 18 being a great closer also...

Now re longest cart rides, I submit:

5 to 6 at Kapalua Plantation - good lord that must be over a mile.

not sure of the numbers, but from the green of the downhill driveable par 4 to a drop shot par 3 at Moorpark CC in SoCal - Matt Ward knows it - this drive along made the course classified as unwalkable.

Oh man, there are many others - too many.

TH

I can proudly say I walked Wente WITH the Huckster, but we did hitch a ride up the switchback to the 10th tee.

The longest cart ride between two holes that I can recall is between 8 and 9 at Lighthouse Sound in Ocean City, MD.

TimT

TimT

[Tom_Doak]

Robin:

Over the years, I have come to see the green-to-tee relationship as one of the most important parts of golf course routing.

It's true that a small percentage of American courses are laid out on land that will necessitate several long cart rides [either that or extreme earthmoving].  And it's also true that another fraction of courses are developed by clients who tell us that the green-to-tee relationships don't matter because everyone will be required to use a cart anyway, and that what they want is the "best possible golf holes" no matter what cart rides are required.

But that fraction (maybe 33%) of the jobs has, I believe, caused most architects to become completely lazy about trying to manage the green-to-tee relationships on their work in general.

If you look through the great courses of the world, you'll see that most of them have very economical green-to-tee relationships throughout ... it's one of the things which makes them a seamless experience and allows one to enjoy the architecture.  Even Pine Valley, with its vaunted isolation of each hole, has very few long green-to-tee walks.

The one exception to this is when you've got great views.  Pacific Dunes has a couple of long transitions, from 3 to 4 and from 11 to 12, but in both cases you're walking right along the clifftops, so it's not an interruption of the experience.

[Robin_Hiseman]

Thanks Tom.  That sums it up nicely.  The European Institute of Golf Course Architects recommend a minimum of 40 metres from the back or side of the preceding green to the next tee (on a flat site), but it is in reality an entirely moveable feast depending upon any number of circumstances.  I think we are generally pretty good at this issue on this side of the pond.  Our sites are usually not expansive enough to breed complacency.

Incidentally, I think I may be able to trump the lot of you with the longest cart ride of all.

My father visited a course in Tenerife (Donald Steel I think) where the 1st tee and clubhouse were at the top of a hill and the whole layout played down to the bottom, from where they bussed you back up to the top, or you walked from 18 to your holiday apartment near the beach.  I thought that was a pretty smart use of a tough site.  Maybe Donald and co should start designing ski resorts too.

[Tom_Doak]

Robin,

I forgot all about that concept.  Bill Newcomb designed a course here in Michigan, Boyne Mountain, at a ski resort in the same fashion, except that the clubhouse is at the bottom of the hill and you take your cart UP to the first tee.  As I wrote in The Confidential Guide, the course is all downhill from there!

However, I think that's a completely different situation; it doesn't really break up the round of golf at all.

[KJaeger]

To those of you who have also played the aforementioned Wente:

Do you think the golf course would have been nearly as compelling if the elevation change from #9 to #10 had not been considered, thereby losing the holes on top and behind the ridge (10 thru 13).  I have played Wente often and found that the exhilaration of arriving at the 10th tee with that view and the devilish little par 4 to deal with always adds to the fun of the course.

I qualify this by saying that NORMALLY I greatly prefer to walk a course if given the option - I find that I can get into the rhythm and flow of the golf "journey" much more easily and I consequently play better (I agree with Robin 100% in this regard).  So, I gravitate towards playing courses which make this option more amenable.  In this case, I think the trade-off in opening up the terrain at a place like Wente seems acceptable, but I hope that such design choices don't become too common.

(As a Livermore valley resident who has played Wente often I give kudos to you guys who have walked "Lombard"!  And I agree with johnk's assessment at Poppy Ridge, though I stubbornly continue to walk there despite the hikes  )

[peter_p]

Doak's Black Forest near Gaylord, Michigan has real long drives to the 1st tee and a half mile from 18 back to the clubhouse. Apparently all the property near the clubhouse was sold for homesites before the second 18 was ideated.

[Sandman]

I think a course that deserves mention in this category is the Rees Jones course built on Lake Norman in NC called The Peninsula Club.  Distance from the first green to the second tee is so long that you can easily get lost as well as forget why you are even there and forget about keeping your mind on the game.  The mounding also makes it difficult to find your way as you can see nothing of the course as you travel which makes it extremely difficult to keep your bearings.

[Forrest Richardson]

Ventaña Canyon in Tucson (The Canyon Course) has a first tee that is about 2-miles from the clubhouse. No. 18 returns to the clubhouse.

When asked about this, Fazio (yes, Tom himself) explained that when he routed the first course (The Mountain Course) he asked several times whether there would ever be another 18 needed. "No way...not until hell freezes over..." came the reply. Tom continued asking as he clearly saw many more holes and opportunities across the rugged desert canyons and washes. "No...just 18!"

Then this call came, about two years later...

"Ahhh, Mr. Fazio, we need another 18-holes down here..."

Tom did his best, but there was no way to integrate the courses well. In fact, there are now separate clubhouses, even though you drive past the original clubhouse on your way from Canyon check-in to Hole No. 1, and again on your way from Canyon No. 9 to Canyon No. 10.

Among the more confusing happenings is when people play 27-holes or somehow turn their cart in at the wrong clubhouse. For this reason carts (at least a few years ago) were ordered in green for the Canyon Course so they would not get mixed up (overload) the Mountain Course cart barn.

[APBernstein]

Stonewall Resort in Roanoke, WEST VIRGINIA (not Virginia, as some confuse) has one of the two longest walks that I have ever experienced outside of the turn at Kiawah's Ocean Course.

The situation seems similar to that of Wente Vineyards.

The 14th at Stonewall (named for Stonewall Jackson Lake and State Park) is a short, driveable par 4 of about 280 yards.  It plays from a tee on flat land up a mild "holler" (WV term) to a green perched above a creek that runs down the mountain crease.

After putting out, you are carted up the steepest wooded hill/mountain on the course.  The change in elevation is probably about 500 feet and the total drive a little under a mile.

The 15th is then a 370 yarder par 4 that plays along the ridgetop.  After putting out, the walk is another quarter of a mile partly down the hill to the 16th's tee boxes (the 16th is a VERY steeply downhill par 3).

By the way, its a Palmer course.

APB

[Rick]

A couple of observations. The long walk at Highland Links has to be at least a 1000 yards and the walk along the river is indeed very pleasant. If one is riding, another completely different route is taken well away from the river. It can't be near as charming!

There is a course in Canmore, Alberta - SilverTip. Upon completing a hole, I lit up a smoke and drove off. Six or eight minutes later the cigarette was done and a signpost said "Not much further". Chugging along and about five or six minutes later, another sign stated "You're almost there". I lit up another smoke. It also was done before I reached the tee, again six or eight minutes elapsing. So, a two smoke trip lasting approximately eighteen to twenty minutes in a cart. That has to be a long way. The irony is that you drive east for half the trip and then west for the other half. Quite likely you finish no more than a hundred yards from where you started from. The terrain and housing lots dictate the round-about journey.

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