[RJ_Daley]

Mike, I don't quite understand if you are saying that lack of strong defense of Yeamans is some signal that passion is waning.  Am I understanding that right?

As for Tom leaving, well I can't believe that.  Perhaps, like most of us, he has reached a point that he needed a break and realised it, and this is a good jumping off place.  But, just like the others of us who arrive there, we take our hiatus and then wander back in.  How many times is it now that the Emporer hisown damn self has gone quitsville on us.  I just want to know the over and under word count on Tom's next pent-up post.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Rich Goodale,

We agree.

It seems that certain topics, courses and architects are taboo when it comes to constructive criticism, yet, it seems with others it's open season to personal and destructive criticism.

[Mike_Cirba]

RJ;

I don't think we have lost our passion necessarily.  I just think it's been too often misdirected.

Or, perhaps as Tom Paul suggests, we've exhausted or recycled too many of the same topics and now we're just bored.  

I don't know.  

I do know that there's a whole world of golf courses out there to explore and discuss so I'd rather see us honestly and openly doing that.  

[ForkaB]

Mike

I fully agree.

I see the "problem" being that too many people on this site take it far too personally when one questions the perfection of a course that they happen to belong to or just love.  It's the old Henry Longhurst "Drink their gin and screw their women but don't ever say anything bad about their bloody golf course!" syndrome.

How are we going to learn anything if all we do is oblige them and kiss the arses of the courses that we are told we should love?

I haven't played a course yet that was anything close to perfect (OK, I haven't played Pine Vallley, or Roylal Melbourne (composite) or Trump National....).  When I do, I'll stop demanding thoguht and constructive criticism from posters.

[Scott_Burroughs]

JohnK,

I've taken one the most "sacred cows" on this site (Doak) to task a couple of times recently, with reasoning, and I NEVER remember that ever being done before (usually it's ass-kissing stuff, as you might call it), but obviously it went unnoticed.  I should hope that with him being one of the first to be honest about others' work, that he could take it himself, as well.

[A_Clay_Man]

Didn't the ancient Egyptians predict that the gca shark jumping would ocurr on Dec. 23rd 2012?

[Michael Dugger]

Remember that shaper who ripped on Black Mesa?  What was his name?

[RJ_Daley]

I really have hopes that once the golf season gets in full bloom, now that we can more easily post pictures with Mystic Lab, that our intrepid posters will reach beyond the same old trite rehashings of our darling favorite courses.  Of course, some of you might have to get over the notion that you can't tell anything by photos, and should be banned from an opinion from just photos.

But, considering Tom's worry that all has been said and recylced, that may have some element of reality in it.  However, with new people coming and going from the dicussion all the time, many of them have not heard the stuff of which our esteemed doyens are becoming tired. It would help if we all had a touch of 'oldtimers' memory loss.  That way every discussion would be fresh...

Honestly, if Tom loves the subject (as we all know he does) then it is up to him to keep re-iterating some of his strongly held notions so newbies have a sense of what has gone before.  Using the search engine is tedious and not all that effective, particularly if you don't know enough to even query a subject.  Tom is probably as tired of giving the same old stump speech as Dean had tired of his spiel.  But, they'll be back... they always do come back you know...

[Mike Hendren]

 I for one will always respect someone that can politely tell me I'm full of BS and say why - than someone that just smiles in polite company and says it behind my back.  

Dick,

That's just not done down here in The South! We have elevated politeness and backstabbing to an art form.

Mike

[RJ_Daley]

Mike, he was an interesting cat.  He had a big diesel fume and alcohol induced set of comments and opinions, and he got taken to task.  But, I still enjoyed his point of view, as foggy as it turned out to be.  Enough other archies and construction people look into this site and care enough about the subject and accuracy of information, to get their dander up and challenge some of the things that Michael fellow said.  We all benefited from that, even if he did get his feathers ruffled.  I hope that fellow comes back on here, perhaps with a bit more humility and forwarning that not just anything can be said without being scrutinized.  That is a good thing, I think...

[RJ_Daley]

Mike H., well hush my puppies and dampen mah case of the vapors, suhr...I am shocked.

[Tuco Ramirez]

Tuco is moved by Mike Cirba's impassioned statement.  Reminds me of the Lincoln-Douglas debates.  I'd like to say that some here have yet to understand my humour, my pleas to get the topics back to golf architecture and away from thinly veiled threads revolving around gaining access or lovefests or nonsense.  With in that framework, I have flamed several participants on the site and have received some vitriolic commentary, for those offended, I offer apologies... Most of this was in humour (in fact all of it was) but sadly, satire was not what many found.  My hope is Mr. Cirba's commentary will bring about a renaissance.  With summer beckoning, lets hope we see plenty of honest debate about new courses and new restorations and share in the joy we all love for the game and its art here.

Longfellow said in a poem dedicated to his wife after she died

"Into each life some rain must fall,
Some days must be dark and dreary"

Lets hope the dark ages of GCA are over and a new sunbeam of hope and renaissance begins again..

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mike, nice post. I hope we just be ourselves and the cream will rise to the top. There are many fine people on here. There will be times when some of us get tired of the negative stuff, and go away for a week or so. I have not found any place like this and like Rich during his selfimposed exile, we all return in search of meaningful discussion about architecture and this game we love so.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Tuco,

Post under NAF, it enhances your credibility.

[JakaB]

The title of this thread is "When did Golfclubatlas "jump the shark""?

I certainly don't intend to name-call in the slightest and I surely won't do that one iota but as far as I'm concerned this website "jumped the shark" when the Merion bunker project began to be discussed on here as it was. That was the most mega-significant issue Golfclubatlas.com has ever had!

Sure, there was a lot of passionate opinion and things were said then in the name of passion that didn't need to be said on the Internet. This had very little to do with what was going on architecturally at Merion--it got personal and petty and I thought this site took a wrong turn at that point and got a reputation out there from which it never has recovered.

There was a brief time I thought those involved in the Merion bunker project might actually come on here and discuss the issue and I even suggested it to them. But there was too much personal flak and I hate to say it but too much presumption as well of knowing things that those on here just didn't know.

That's when Golfclubatlas.com "jumped the shark" and because of it I don't know that it will ever be possible for this site to create that level of dialogue which was the hope of some on here initially.

There will be those on here who say that doesn't matter, that's it's more important to just say what you feel regardless of what memberships are going through or what they think. That it's more important to be constructively critical without worry about political things such as that.

Maybe it is in the end but I, for one, always hoped we could have those dialogues with the clubs. How interesting would that be, but I doubt it will ever happen after Golfclubatlas "jumped the shark" over the Merion bunker project. It even got this site some national publicity but where has that gotten us? Are we able to have a dialogue with those at a significant golf club whose architecture we're discussing?

I find it interesting that the post above was so easily swept under the rug....who were the people that were out of line on the Merion thread...um...Mike Cirba, Tommy Nacaratto, Bill V and their populust minions.   Who is now doing the same at Riviera...um...Geoff Shack, Tommy N, Mike Cirba....they may not be wrong about Riviera...and I doubt they are...but they were dead wrong at least procedurally at Merion....are they contrite...ask them.  Am I sorry that single tread caused me to check into this site everydamn day of the week just to see if I can get pissed off enough to get through another boring day....hell yes I'm sorry...I'm sorry for my participation and I'm sorry for my misguided motivations....I'm just hooked on the misery of it all.   Which begs the question for those who really don't plan on this being a learning experience..because who ever goes into the 19th hole hoping to learn something....what motivates you to come here....is it all that obvious or does it go beyond...friends, popularity, power and access.

[THuckaby2]

If Tuco is NAF, that would be VERY disappointing.  One would think a person I've had so much email contact with, always in great humor and spirit, would never say the things to me that Tuco did on here.

In any case Tuco, your post here is interesting, but I will refrain from revisiting old battles, and only say as one of those offended your apology is accepted.    

As for all the rest, well... even this topic has been discussed several times before!

TH

[JakaB]

How many times when there is a cry for change...the source of the probem are the ones crying.  I have yet to see an old thread brought up that meets the ideal.

[Jeff Fortson]

 


Jeff F.

[Mike_Cirba]

John K;

I probably have studied Merion more in person than any other course I've played.  

A close friend of mine from this board notified me that "Merion is about to make a mistake that will potentially make them a laughing stock", long before the work was to begin.  He based that assessment on some "test bunkers" that had been built on the West course, so he had my attention.

I hoped for better, John, I really did.  I love Merion and every member and staff person I've ever met there have been nothing but gracious and kind to me.  

But, mistakes are sometimes made and no, I haven't changed my opinion one iota.  

If I was overly vociferious and passionate in my condemnation of the work, I apologize to anyone offended.

But John...show me one time that I made a personal attack on anyone involved and then you'll truly see me being "contrite".

During the time of the discussion, you wouldn't believe the number private messages I received from people here who couldn't politically say what needed to be said, but wanted to encourage me anyway.  Some of them came from the very same people who were debating counter points with me on the board.  That told me all I needed to know about speaking out.  

I have been tempted to anonymously copy some of that here, but out of consideration for their positions, I'll refrain.  I hope you understand.

[JakaB]

Mike and redanman,

I owe both of you an apology when I look how I view the threads on Merion and Riviera when compared to the Child threads on Yale.   I havn't seen any of the three courses pre or post work but still give GC a pass....thats not consistent and its not right....sorry.

[Mike_Cirba]

Yes, John;

At minimum I would have expected you to castigate Geoffrey, as well.   Fair's fair, after all.    

Coming to Baltusrol next week?  I'm hoping to meet you.

Speaking of Baltusrol, does anyone else find it sad that Dr. Katz seems to be another of the MIA?  Perhaps he just gave up trying to treat our particularly severe mental maladies and moved on.  

[Bill Gayne]

A couple of random thoughts on this thread from a guy that's only been looking at this web site for about a year.

First, I second Redanman's comment that this is the best site.

Second, I've gone back and looked at the early threads that were just reposted. It took 32 months to create the first 48 pages. It took 24 months to create the next 300 pages. The topics and themes are constantly recycled for a variety of reasons: new people come to the site with either different views or a desire to participate in the discussion, new courses are created, changes are made that alter the original ideas presented, new information becomes available, travel questions, etc. Many threads are recycled because people don't use the search function.

One of the things that really struck me in reading through the threads is how dogmatic and locked into positions that people have become over time. They may have originally had flexibility and open minds in their viewpoints but they are now locked in. I don't know if it's that people generally don't like going back and changing the opinions that they previosly espoused or if it's in response to the rhetoric becoming more aggressive

Adam, the Mayan calendar ends December 23, 2012. It marks the end of the current time cycle and the beginning of a new time cycle. As you probably know there's many theories as to what this may mean.

Bill

[JakaB]

Mike,

No, I can't make it to Baltusrol.  Did you know that Dr Katz was once a member there until he moved to my region of the country.  I go see him now and then and he lets me hold some of his great books on architecture....told me the greatest wife story as it relates to golf ever told...it is so good that I dare not repeat it..if you ever come to see me he will be part of our day.  That neither of us will be sorry for.

[Mike_Cirba]

John;

Yes, I did know that about the good Doctor.  Really relieved to hear you've been visiting him for one on ones.    

I hope to get together with both of you...I do plan to visit Chicago in early October, so perhaps we can arrange it then.  

[Tim_Weiman]

Mike Cirba:

I'm having trouble with the idea that GCA "jumped the shark" or that it has changed much at all over the past several years.

You are right to point out that architectural criticism is a very sensitive thing. People in the industry don't want it all. As Tom Doak pointed out in the Confidential Guide, industry folks want everything to be considered "great". But, when checking out this art form costs as much time and money as it does, consumers deserve a source where they can find honest opinions, hopefully well articulated.

I don't know where one can find this better than Golfclubatlas.

As for the Merion issue, I have great respect for Tom Paul's concerns, but think those who brought this issue to our attention did both golf architecture and this web site a favor. My own Merion experience was instructive of the nature of the golf industry. My hosts were very gracious, but insisted that I not say anything about the Fazio work here on GCA. Assuming there is no time limitation on their request, I'll simply repeat my suggestion: the Fazio work deserved close scrutiny. Without GCA it probably wouldn't have happened. That would be unfortunate in my book.

Tim

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