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Darren_Kilfara

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #175 on: February 20, 2004, 06:45:17 PM »
No, it doesn't come off that way at all, Tom H. - but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about the site being "broke". I think it's at least slightly broke and otherwise showing significant wear and tear. But ultimately, this site is a non-interventionist dictatorship (and because of that, it acts sort of like a democracy), and if the "it ain't broke" camp is in the ascendancy, I guess I can either put up or shut up...

Cheers,
Darren

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #176 on: February 20, 2004, 06:47:09 PM »
Tom Huckaby,
Patrick:

You can't possibly be that naive.  There is literally no way to protect such a site from intrusion from those who would want to do so, absent a moderator.

You can't be that obtuse  ;D

Of course it can be done without strong moderator involvement.  

The key is in the selection process.

You won't be able to participate unless you've been pre-qualified.  And, if your behavior is unacceptable, when Ran reviews the participation and participants after an initial phase, he'll make the call as to whether you stay or go.  
I think that provides all of the self discipline you'll ever need.


Patrick, invitation-only discussion boards (the way "pre-qualification" works) don't work.  They are paradise the first 60-90 days when the charter members have the place to themselves, but then cabin fever strikes and they realize that more members are needed to keep things fresh.  

I am speaking from experience, having been a charter member at two "invitation only" boards...one that went belly up after 6 months with 150+ members (you could hear the crickets chirping after a while) and a second that is probably the most successful golf discussion board on the web (100,000 unique users per month and over 2 million hits per month).  I am very familiar with that board having joined it when access was limited to invited guests who knew the password.  Well after a month of the charter members talking among themselves, that board opened the gates to anyone with a valid email address (even a guy like RGKELLER who is a frequent participant) and the rest is history.

Pre-qualified, invitation only, or otherwise exclusive boards don't work.  Is that too obtuse?  :D
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #177 on: February 20, 2004, 06:51:32 PM »
Tom Huckaby,
Patrick/Darren:

Neither of you cannot possibly be this inexperienced. ;D
 
Just how do you plan on keeping out the uninvited?

You guys don't think people will be able to get past whatever security you set up?  Please.  It's remarkably easy, and this too has been proven time and time again.  Set up this group in an attempt to keep people out and as I say, they just treat it as a challenge to get in.

THAT is the issue here, far more than improper posts.
 
You've forgotten one of the basics of the game of golf,
you've taken your eye off the ball.

You can worry about that and deal with that if and when it happens.


THuckaby2

Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #178 on: February 20, 2004, 06:52:11 PM »
That works for me, Darren - well said.  In the end I do believe the site ain't broke, yes.  But also I believe that even if it were, the suggested "fix" not only would cause more harm than good, but also just plain wouldn't work in any practical sense.

In any case, what remains amazing to me is the passion and devotion people have to this site, one way or the other.  That to me is incredible, and a testament to the host, really.

TH

THuckaby2

Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #179 on: February 20, 2004, 06:55:24 PM »
Patrick:

Au contraire, my eye is squarely on the ball.

Just who is going to "worry about that and deal with it if and when it happens"?

A strong, very active moderator, that's who.

And who is going to fill that role?

If you look back about 100 posts, I said this idea COULD WORK, but only with a strong, vigilant moderator.  Glad to see you've come to realize this after all this time!

TH

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #180 on: February 20, 2004, 06:57:21 PM »
Kevin Reilly,

I would agree, 150 or so participants would tank rather quickly.

I think the vision would be for 500 U.S. and 500 International.

Rome wasn't built in a day, and.... if you retain the general discussion group, what harm is there in the experiment.

THuckaby2

Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #181 on: February 20, 2004, 07:03:20 PM »
Patrick:

Please listen to Kevin.   This is what I've been trying to get through to you guys all day.... My experience is the same as his.  And he didn't even get into the issues of non-invitees hacking in...

TH




Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #182 on: February 20, 2004, 07:05:24 PM »
Pat Mucci wrote:

"The general "Discussion Group" will continue exactly as it has in the past and will be the "pool" from which future posters are selected to participate in the "elevated discussion group"[/i]


Wow.  This is sounding more and more like a fraternity.  Do those selected have to go through a pledging period too?  Do they get hazed by being forced to play Ted Robinson courses?

Who will decide who gets picked?  Are you suggesting that you would get to choose?  Who would be the initial people involved?  This sounds like a facist's dream.  Do I have to have blonde hair and blue eyes Mr. Mucci?


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #183 on: February 20, 2004, 08:06:49 PM »
Jeff Fortson,
Wow.  This is sounding more and more like a fraternity.  Do those selected have to go through a pledging period too?  Do they get hazed by being forced to play Ted Robinson courses?

That's an absurd analogy

Who will decide who gets picked?  

Ran

Are you suggesting that you would get to choose?  

NO, I have neither the time nor the inclination

Who would be the initial people involved?

That would be up to Ran

This sounds like a facist's dream.  Do I have to have blonde hair and blue eyes Mr. Mucci?

Why categorize my support of the concept as being the equivalent of support for the Hitler Youth Movement ?
That's a rather extreme, offensive and derogatory accusation, and perhaps reinforcement for the concept being proposed/discussed.

Are you that insecure ?



Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #184 on: February 20, 2004, 08:32:47 PM »
Mr. Mucci,

Since you choose to cherry pick the questions you want to answer, I'll ask once again.....

What qualifications do you have that would put you in this "elevated discussion group"?  In what capacity have you worked or been involved in the golf business?  What makes you an elite voice to be considered for this "group"?

I have an idea.....

Fine, let's make this "elevated discussion group", except make it for only those involved in the golf business.  Architects, supers, professionals, and equipment manufacturers are welcome.  You know, REAL big-hitters.  You know, those with a REAL insiders knowledge of the business.  All greens chairmen and USGA committee members can have access to read but not to comment.  That way maybe they can learn something instead of continuing to ruin great golf courses.


Jeff F.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2004, 08:33:41 PM by Jeff_Fortson »
#nowhitebelt

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #185 on: February 20, 2004, 08:55:48 PM »
Jeff Fortson,
Since you choose to cherry pick the questions you want to answer, I'll ask once again.....

Are you afraid to answer my question ?

What qualifications do you have that would put you in this "elevated discussion group"?  

I never said that I had any

In what capacity have you worked or been involved in the golf business?

I was involved with a combination of a redesign and restoration and construction of a golf course.  
I continued that pursuit with respect to other golf courses on similar and non-similar projects.

I was also asked to re-design a golf course in Florida and design and build a golf course in Jamaica.

How have you been involved in golf course "architecture" ?

 
What makes you an elite voice to be considered for this "group"?

I never said that I was an elite voice, those are your words.  
I have no problem being denied entry into this "group", something that is apparently troubling you.


Fine, let's make this "elevated discussion group", except make it for only those involved in the golf business.  Architects, supers, professionals, and equipment manufacturers are welcome.  You know, REAL big-hitters.  You know, those with a REAL insiders knowledge of the business.  

I have no problem with that

All greens chairmen and USGA committee members can have access to read but not to comment.

I would be against that for the following reason.
Some conversations are better served when they are made in private, not in public.  Some superintendents and other architecture related individuals have told me that they are concerned about posting due to the public nature of the site. Hence, if it's to be a limited access site, it shouldn't be partially private.   Imagine if you will, a superintendent letting his hair down and freely discussing the problems he's having at his club, with his green chairman, the President, members or the architect.  Or, an architect implying some problems with the developer.  If that were open to the public it could be very damaging, certainly not in any contributors best interest and an inhibiting factor.

Sort of like you telling members that a member or employee supports the Hitler Youth group, a total fabrication, made up by you, that could be damaging to one relationships and employment at the club


That way maybe they can learn something instead of continuing to ruin great golf courses.

The USGA has never ruined a great golf course.
Members of golf courses ruin great courses, and many have done it for decades without any contact with the USGA


Now, can you answer my question

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #186 on: February 20, 2004, 09:15:49 PM »
Pat Mucci,

You asked:

Why categorize my support of the concept as being the equivalent of support for the Hitler Youth Movement ? [/i]

Where did I ever mention Hitler Youth?  Please find it and show me.

This is what I wrote...

This sounds like a facist's dream.  Do I have to have blonde hair and blue eyes Mr. Mucci?

While I would be a fool to deny that Nazi Germany wasn't facist or not favorable to fair complexioned people I never mentioned Hitler or Hitler Youth.  You draw those conclusions yourself.  Plus, if you could not see the sarcasm I was using to draw similarities between your ideas and facism then I am sorry.  I certainly don't think you are a nazi.  Others in here have been throwing around terms like "pseudo-fascism" and "soup-nazi".  Why didn't you jump down their throats?  Your sensitivity to this comment is a good way to divert the the questions put before you.



You also asked...


That's a rather extreme, offensive and derogatory accusation, and perhaps reinforcement for the concept being proposed/discussed.

Are you that insecure ?



No.  I think you must be the insecure one in this argument.  Your attempt to silence or stifle the voices of people in here by advocating exclusionary tactics on this website show that you are the one who must be insecure with what others have to say.  Why else would you want  an "elevated discussion group"? to be created?  Excuses like off-topic threads and name-calling are a load of hogwash for two reasons.  First, If you don't like certain topics, don't get involved in them or read them.  It's simple.  Secondly, you are just as guilty of slinging mud on this website as anyone else here.

The only thing I see being reinforced is a desire by a select few that want to create a club for their views.  That is fine, go create one.  Hell, go ahead and lobby Ran for it.  Your pipe dream of a club will go bunk inside a year without the voices of people who may not have ever heard of NGLA.  It is those voices that are necessary to push your agendas on.  

Mr. Mucci, I am sure you are a fine man and I think I would enjoy talking GCA with you over a couple of beers.  However, I take real offense to a few individuals advocating the exclusion of the very people that give GCA any reason to exist.


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #187 on: February 20, 2004, 09:20:44 PM »
Mr. Mucci,

I have been involved in the planning, design and construction of a course from scratch.  I have been asked to consult on many restorative projects at the clubs I have worked at.


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #188 on: February 20, 2004, 09:47:57 PM »
Pat Mucci,

You asked:

Why categorize my support of the concept as being the equivalent of support for the Hitler Youth Movement ? [/i]

Where did I ever mention Hitler Youth?  Please find it and show me.

This is what I wrote...

This sounds like a facist's dream.  Do I have to have blonde hair and blue eyes Mr. Mucci?

You have to be kidding !

If you don't think the above statement implies the Hitler Youth Movement and/or the Super Race, you must have failed World History in school


While I would be a fool to deny that Nazi Germany wasn't facist or not favorable to fair complexioned people I never mentioned Hitler or Hitler Youth.  You draw those conclusions yourself.  Plus, if you could not see the sarcasm I was using to draw similarities between your ideas and facism then I am sorry.  I certainly don't think you are a nazi.  Others in here have been throwing around terms like "pseudo-fascism" and "soup-nazi".  Why didn't you jump down their throats?  Your sensitivity to this comment is a good way to divert the the questions put before you

They didn't direct those comments toward me, you did

You also asked...


That's a rather extreme, offensive and derogatory accusation, and perhaps reinforcement for the concept being proposed/discussed.

Are you that insecure ?



No.  I think you must be the insecure one in this argument.  Your attempt to silence or stifle the voices of people in here by advocating exclusionary tactics on this website show that you are the one who must be insecure with what others have to say.

That's absolutely untrue, and you know it.
If you had read my post with any degree of comprehension you would have seen that I advocated leaving the current
"discussion group" exactly as it is, with continuing access to all.


Why else would you want  an "elevated discussion group"? to be created?

To seperate the wheat from the chaff  

Excuses like off-topic threads and name-calling are a load of hogwash for two reasons.  First, If you don't like certain topics, don't get involved in them or read them.

I don't

Secondly, you are just as guilty of slinging mud on this website as anyone else here.

Not true, I may challenge opinions, or allegations of fact, but you won't find me personally attacking anyone, unless I've been set upon first

The only thing I see being reinforced is a desire by a select few that want to create a club for their views.

So, you're against higher education ?  

That is fine, go create one.  Hell, go ahead and lobby Ran for it.  Your pipe dream of a club will go bunk inside a year without the voices of people who may not have ever heard of NGLA.  It is those voices that are necessary to push your agendas on.

I have no agenda other then to see the site confine itself to architecture related topics, and the elimination of anonymous posts.  

Mr. Mucci, I am sure you are a fine man and I think I would enjoy talking GCA with you over a couple of beers.  However, I take real offense to a few individuals advocating the exclusion of the very people that give GCA any reason to exist.

I'd be more than pleased to have a drink and break bread with you, but, we disagree on this issue.  You view it as exclusion, I view it as inclusion.
Noone has advocated eliminating the current discussion group.
What has been advocated is adding a discussion level for architecture by those who are serious about architecture.


Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #189 on: February 20, 2004, 10:00:43 PM »
 8)

Boys, Boys, Why not quit talking about it and go do it..

If you haven't persuaded your target to change their position after the 4th or 5th try, give it a rest please. Your 5 minute period is up.. Play On!

Those making a vocation out of gca don't need gca.com , but it can't hurt them in their market research to keep an eye on its discussion.  Information and knowledge is key to business.  After all they're in competition in a tough market and can see almost any course in the world in person,.. they don't need endless references to hole number x at XYZA as a "perfect" example, and frankly neither do I more than once.. I want to see it and experience it. Play On!

Those making an avocation out of gca can have great fun, educational, and interesting golfing experiences with others from their gca.com exposure.. in this virtual world or in person.  This site is a great enabler in that regard. Play on!

If Ran could police it more, i'm sure he would.. Play on!

Gca.com has all the essential elements and nutrients to make it grow and make the world go round.  

I like to ponder the proposition that:

One who listens will hear..
One who hears will understand..
One who understands will act forthrightly..
One who acts forthrightly will succeed..
One who succeeds will listen..  

and then I'm going to try to pound it over the dogleg trap on #6 at the WCC's Player Course to find the turbo boost slope and set up a 6 or 7-iron approach..

Play on!
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #190 on: February 20, 2004, 10:03:54 PM »
Why don't we break this down to old vs new?  Two catigories.  It is a beginming, and then it will grow.

We need a date to establish old vs new!

Willie

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #191 on: February 20, 2004, 10:06:02 PM »
Pat Mucci,

You said...

"To seperate the wheat from the chaff "[/i]

Rather good of you to determine what is wheat and what is chaff for us.


You asked...

"So, you're against higher education ?"[/i]

No.  I am against alienating people from being privy to a higher education.  You are promoting a caste system on here.


You said...

"I have no agenda other then to see the site confine itself to architecture related topics, and the elimination of anonymous posts.[/i]

Since when was college football connected to GCA?


You said...

"you must have failed World History in school"[/i]

That is laughable.  If you chose to get to know me you'd be embarrassed you wrote that.  I won't toot my horn any further on the topic.  Let's just say I am well educated in history.


You said...

"the above statement implies the Hitler Youth Movement and/or the Super Race"[/i]

If your mind is so shut to analogies and metaphorical comments then that is your issue.  Do you have some ultra-right, hawkish political beliefs that make you feel uncomfortable when others mention facism to you?  Your response to my comments seem to strike deep into your conscience.


You said...

"I'd be more than pleased to have a drink and break bread with you, but, we disagree on this issue.  You view it as exclusion, I view it as inclusion.
Noone has advocated eliminating the current discussion group.
What has been advocated is adding a discussion level for architecture by those who are serious about architecture."
[/i]

I'd be happy to do that as well.  Hopefully, sometime in the near future that can happen.  I live in the New York Metro area.  Anytime you want to play or get a drink, let me know.


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #192 on: February 20, 2004, 10:22:22 PM »
Jeff Fortson,
Rather good of you to determine what is wheat and what is chaff for us.

It's not that difficult, architecture is wheat, everything else is chaff[/color]

No.  I am against alienating people from being privy to a higher education.  You are promoting a caste system on here.

No I'm not, I'm recommending a post graduate course.

The fact that most students in the lower 10 % of their class don't get into law school, doesn't mean that the law school is exclusionary
[/color]

Since when was college football connected to GCA?

I appologizing in advance for that thread[/color]


"you must have failed World History in school"[/i]

That is laughable.  If you chose to get to know me you'd be embarrassed you wrote that.  I won't toot my horn any further on the topic.  Let's just say I am well educated in history.

Then how can you plead ignorance in linking fascists, the Master Race, with blue eyed, blond haired individuals.  If you were that steeped in World History you would have been familiar with the connection.[/color]


"the above statement implies the Hitler Youth Movement and/or the Super Race"[/i]

If your mind is so shut to analogies and metaphorical comments then that is your issue.  Do you have some ultra-right, hawkish political beliefs that make you feel uncomfortable when others mention facism to you?  Your response to my comments seem to strike deep into your conscience.

Jeff, you must be kidding, you used the term fascist and linked it to blue eyed, blond haired individuals, not me.
You can't claim to be a history expert on one hand, and deny the purpose of your reference on the other.

I personally prefer benevolent dictators, especially at golf clubs.
[/color]

"I'd be more than pleased to have a drink and break bread with you, but, we disagree on this issue.  You view it as exclusion, I view it as inclusion.
Noone has advocated eliminating the current discussion group.
What has been advocated is adding a discussion level for architecture by those who are serious about architecture."
[/i]

I'd be happy to do that as well.  Hopefully, sometime in the near future that can happen.  I live in the New York Metro area.  Anytime you want to play or get a drink, let me know.

I now see the problem, your memory.
You may recall that I invited you to play GCGC with some of us previously, but unfortunately, you couldn't make it.
[/color]
« Last Edit: February 20, 2004, 10:25:39 PM by Patrick_Mucci_Jr »

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #193 on: February 20, 2004, 10:38:00 PM »
Pat,

You know, I've never been apart of a discussion that has gotten more side-tracked in my time on this website nor have I been more embarrassed with my participation in one.  I apologize for any misunderstanding that has come between us and any part I have had in widening that misunderstanding.  

I never meant to literally call you a nazi.  I don't think exclusionary beliefs in a website are the same as the superiority of a race.  I thought you'd be able to detect my intent in the analogy.  I was wrong and that IS MY FAULT.  I apologize if you thought I was trying to call you one.

As for the idea of "bifurcating" GCA.com, we obviously disagree.  It appears we are not going to change each other's minds.  I have no problem with that.  I'll leave it at, I take the idea as an affront to the very purpose of this website.

I am truly sorry for any misunderstanding and hope to enjoy a cordial and warm relationship with you from here on out.  I hadn't forgotten your kind offer to have me join you at GCGC and regret not being able to make it that day.  Hopefully, someday we'll tee it up, wherever it may be.  

No hard feelings here.


Respectfully,

Jeff Fortson
#nowhitebelt

DMoriarty

Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #194 on: February 20, 2004, 11:12:58 PM »
Despite Mike's best intentions, this thread jumped the shark long ago and should be put out of its misery soon.  GCA.com, on the other hand, has not jumped the shark in my opinion.  But I guess it is inevitable that a bunch of guys who admire old golf courses will occasionally yearn for days gone past.  

Like much else, the quality of this discussion bd. ebs and flows.  Might have something to do with the weather.  Anyone feel like going back over the old posts to check what time of year the regulars start griping about what's happened to the website?  Could it correspond to the long winter?

Some other thoughts which apply to me as much as anyone else. . . .

--  Ran didnt start this site so he could babysit us.  We are capable of taking care of ourselves, arent we?  Sure complete jerks and flamers roll in, but they usually roll out if ignored.   Most of us are adults, we need to start acting like it.

-- I strongly disagree that we have talked about everything there is to talk about.   Sure certain topics recycle as new people come, but we have barely scratched the surface on many other topics.   If there is a problem with repitition, it may be that too many of us seem to have axes to grind and we grind them with every stone.  

--  Further, many of us could use to be less dogmatic.  How many of us have ever allowed ourselves to be convinced of anything?  Would it be so bad if we occasionally learned something from someone else, and admitted it?  

--  Who cares if GCA.com has influenced golf architecture.  I come here to learn, not to teach.  

--  Splitting the site is a really bad idea.  Unlike certain segments of the golf world, we can all get in the door here, and I think that is a good thing.  How we perform once were is a reflection on us.  

--  Plus, splitting the site wouldnt really solve much.  Most of the issues which have arisen are between and among regulars.  Unless someone is planning to kick out about 4/5 of the regular contributors, any closed site will likely experience some of the same problems.

--  Off topic threads happen.  Ignore them if you arent interested or ignore them because, generally, you dont like them.  

--  That being said, we all should show a little restraint regarding tangents and off topic threads.  Like it or not, Ran started this site to discuss golf course architecture.  If you want a general conversation thread or just a golf thread, start your own.  
     So what if there isnt a great way to stop off topic posts . . . this isnt license to completely ignore the focus of the website.  Exercize a little self regulation.  

--  This goes for posts within threads, as well.  Topic changes, the back and forth of personal jokes or even excessive pleasantries tend to bog down threads and make them less enjoyable for all but those posting and sometimes the few they are talking to.   And if we dont really have something to say, show a little restraint.  And if one of us has half the posts on a thread, that person is  posting too much.

--  I agree that this is no place for personal attacks.   Dont name call, dont bring up inappropriate and off-topic gossip, dont hold everything against everyone forever, etc.        

    Moreover, it would be nice if we didnt always assume the worst motive, and if we didnt always push the same old agenda.  If you dont agree with someone regarding gca, take on their specific views and demonstrate how they are mistaken.  Dont just throw stones from a distance without ever actually taking on anything said.  

--  On the other side of the coin, I think that we should all step back and think about what is a personal attack and what isnt.   More and more, people are mischaracterizing honest criticism as personal attack.  (See the reaction to Geoff S.'s comments in one of the Riviera threads.)   Challenging someone's views (or course) is not a personal attack, even if you do it by name.  Disagreeing in no uncertain terms with something someone posted is not a personal attack.   Lighten up and try to have a little thicker skin.  
    And if you dont want your views challenged, dont post them.  If you cant handle frank and open discussion, go somewhere else or start your own website.  It is not personal, only gca.

--  We could all be nicer to new posters.  It is pretty intimidating to come into this environment and new people sometimes make mistakes.  They make mistakes, be we could all cut them a little slack because they may have something to contribute.    

Just ramblings.   Take them as you will.  
   


Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #195 on: February 21, 2004, 02:23:29 AM »
Speaking as someone who hasn't been around here long enough to have seen the supposed golden age some believe this site had and has now lost, I can't comment on whether GCA has "jumped the shark".  I certainly find it by far the most interesting and stimulating golf related discussion I've ever enjoyed, and I would mourn its loss if it disappeared or greatly changed from its current form.

Some may question its relevance these days, but there must be a reason real life architects like Tom Doak and the recently joined Robin Hiseman visit this site.  People can debate their motives all day, but honestly who cares?  It doesn't matter to me if they come to listen to the views of actual golfers who care about architecture, to gain admiration and approval, or to laugh at our cluelessness about their profession.  What matters is that I enjoy reading what they have to say and learn from it.  I know I must make sense at least once in a while because I sometimes get responses to my questions or opinions from the professional architects.

Could it be improved?  Of course, almost anything can.  But by who's definition, and with what risks?  I'd certainly want to err on the side of caution before making major changes like the dual track forum some are advocating.  If your car wouldn't start and you had to fix it yourself, would you begin by checking the battery or by replacing the engine?

I think some people must be too sensitive or have too high of expectations for civility on the Internet.  This isn't the Muirfield clubhouse where everyone is on the best behavior.  It would be nice, but it isn't realistic, especially considering the extremely low standard most Internet sites set.  I'm constantly amazed at how civil it is here, and never notice any "attacks" on anyone unless they are pointed out.  Honestly, if someone attacked me here using the standards some have for that definition, I wouldn't be offended because I wouldn't know I'd even been attacked!

As someone who has been on the Internet and participated in various forums since 1989, perhaps I've developed a thicker skin.  When was first on the net, it purely was for non commercial purposes, and consisted mostly of academic researchers and graduate students, almost always posting under their real names.  But the flaming was far worse than anything this site has ever seen.  Every September when a new academic year started you'd get a new crop of goofballs who tried to stir up trouble here and there, until September 1993, which became known as the "September that never ended" because it was when AOL allowed its users to access the Internet, and everything has gone downhill since then.  That GCA manages to maintain such a high level of civility is absolutely amazing to me.  I ascribe to the theory "if it ain't broke don't fix it".  I wouldn't mess with success.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Darren_Kilfara

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #196 on: February 21, 2004, 04:05:09 AM »
The last two posts have been very good - cheers, guys.

Let me return to another, different hobbyhorse I've raised in the past. Most people seem to think that a vertically-tiered GCA.com doesn't make sense, that there's no place for an exclusionary forum-within-a-forum. OK...what about a horizontally-tiered GCA.com, then, with separate forums for on-topic and off-topic material? Simply taking that step would help focus the GCA-related material - if only because you wouldn't have so many good threads slipping off of page 1 and into oblivion - while still allowing everyone the joys of off-topic fraternizing. Can anyone tell me why that wouldn 't be a good idea without resorting to the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" line?

Cheers,
Darren
« Last Edit: February 21, 2004, 04:05:52 AM by Darren_Kilfara »

David Lott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #197 on: February 21, 2004, 04:31:50 AM »
I wander in and out of here every three months or so--have done so for several years. The very first time I came here I was appalled by the tone. That had to be 3-4 years ago. I was told (kindly) by Mr. Paul not to worry, everyone has a thick skin and "it's the way of our people." The yearning for the lost golden age is almost invariably myopic. It certainly seems so in this case.
David Lott

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #198 on: February 21, 2004, 05:06:50 AM »
The last two posts have been very good - cheers, guys.

Let me return to another, different hobbyhorse I've raised in the past. Most people seem to think that a vertically-tiered GCA.com doesn't make sense, that there's no place for an exclusionary forum-within-a-forum. OK...what about a horizontally-tiered GCA.com, then, with separate forums for on-topic and off-topic material? Simply taking that step would help focus the GCA-related material - if only because you wouldn't have so many good threads slipping off of page 1 and into oblivion - while still allowing everyone the joys of off-topic fraternizing. Can anyone tell me why that wouldn 't be a good idea without resorting to the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" line?

Cheers,
Darren

Darren,
I'm glad your happy now.


Mike_Sweeney

Re:When did Golf Club Atlas "jump the shark"?
« Reply #199 on: February 21, 2004, 07:14:01 AM »
The only reason I think there should be a separation is due to the search engine. There is alot of historical knowledge down on that server in Oz. If serious conversations about architecture could be found easier by separating the discussion groups, then I would support that.

There is alot of interesting content, but it is hard to find. However, I support the Honor Code, a few will break it, most will not. I don't personally like the concept of excluding anyone from any section.