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BillV

Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #50 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
ScottyYou haven't seen 2-3, 6-7, 13-14 Applebrook.

John Morrissett

Leven and Lundin Links
« Reply #51 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Rich--Now you don't like the 12th at Lundin either??!?I have come to respect the 8th as a sleeper, and while the 13th is a bit different, it does offer up perhaps the finest view in Scottish golf.  Therefore, I would never tire of playing the hole.

Jeff_Brauer

Why do So Many Golf Magazines Fail?
« Reply #52 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
There was a magazine explosion (no, not the kind happening in Afghanistan right now) in the late 80-90's, primarily due to the economic expansion. It seemed there was/is a magazine for every interest, plus a lot of new general interest magazines.  There was an article in Time or Newsweek about it, and the failure of many new ones. In a nutshell, they said that many successful old line magazines were started and run by devotees for devotees, so they really knew what their readers wanted.  They listed two of my favorite subscriptions, including Golf Digest as examples of the former, which are still going strong. They further stated that many newer magazines were run by journalism professionals or corporate types, who simply saw a revenue stream first, content second! It reminds me of the time my wife interviewed with Chuckee Cheeze Pizza (she was a food scientist) for a job.  At one point, the interviewer mused "Our customer surveys say that we should probably improve our food", completely thinking that something else (i.e. kids entertainment) was a more important factor in suceeding in the restaurant business than better tasting food). Well, you can only fool people so long, and even shorter when money gets tight.  That's why they fail, because golfers know what we want, and when the content is "sincere" and/or authentic.  To me, T&L and Maximum Golf fit the second description, never put a lot of content in that appealed to me - who really wants Cigar and Brandy articles? - and were probably doomed to extinction in the first recession from the start!Jeff
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

BillV

Why do So Many Golf Magazines Fail?
« Reply #53 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
NeilI too am interested in receiving this magazine.  Notify me at redandoc@hotmail when it is ready for shipping.

Ran Morrissett

Humps and Hollows at Royal Mid Surrey
« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Paul,I can see the mounds  fine this morning, and I must say that the photo is disappointing in all respects: the artificiality and 'cleanness' of the mounds, the  fact that they are parallel to play, the trees amongst them, everything.

Paul Turner

Leven and Lundin Links
« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Boat of Garten has one of the best finishers in Scotland.

THuckaby2

Back To Back Par Threes
« Reply #56 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Gib-san:Mr. Burroughs beat me to the punch here.  There are indeed sadly many Tommy's.  Of course for us valley boys, we claim the original to be the one we most frequented: in Van Nuys, near where Roscoe hits the 405.  But claims to being the "original" Tommy's are as shrouded in mystery as what Raynor's routing of Cypress would have been.I'm sure the Trojan brethren claim one down near there...TH

Patrick_Mucci

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #57 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
TBJ,Like you, my initial forays into discussions evolving into debates on architecture may have become a little heated, even contentious.  I quickly realized that some were very passionate, perhaps overly sensitive, about a number of issues.I spent a lot of time defending Rees Jones and others, including Fazio on some issues.I won't say that you need a flak jacket and helmet when you first enter this site on certain subjects like Merion, ANGC, Rees, Fazio, etc.,etc., but it helps.Once the site gets used to you and your well voiced opinions, things settle down.If you read an earlier post by Tom Paul, he was amazed that Tommy Naccarato called me his friend because Tommy and I had some knock down, drag out fights over a variety of issues.  But, we have become friends, we enjoy each other, respect our positions, but still disagree on an occassional subject.I've met so many nice people through this site, and I hope you will to.So, don your battle gear, voice your opinions and have fun.Oh, one other thing, I think individuals who post under their name receive earlier recognition and credibility, but that's your choice to make.Getting back to the subject, I wonder if NGLA and GCGC held a tournament every year that was televised for four (4) days, what kind of message that would send to the golf world, and would the pressures generated through the telecast cause them to alter the course in any way ?Lastly, many on this site, including myself  are upset/disappointed, etc.,etc., that many wonderful classic golf courses have been altered/scarred/disfigured forever by modern day arhcitects that would rather place their fingerprints all over the course, rather than preserve the original fingerprints.

BillV

Back To Back Par Threes
« Reply #58 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Ted JaneczekI think you are correct about Desert Highlands.  I believe it is 15-16 or 16-17, no?  I'll check the card when I get home tonight if I have time.Also, you never called to play this season!

DBE

Ross courses in Jacksonville.
« Reply #59 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Only Ross architecture left in Jacksonville is Timuquana CC.  Several architects have fiddled with it but the rework by Bobby Weed five years ago was the most significant.  Except for the routing, not much Ross left there.  It is a private club and without a member, impossible to play.San Jose CC has been totally redone, most recently by (I believe) Bill Gordon.  Not much worth seeing and another private, no way to play without member.Hyde Park GC is from what I can get out of the owners (Billy Maxwell and Chris Blocker) pretty much as Ross designed.  Only change is the par three 16th hole.  Worth playing as green complexes, while lacking of some of the bunkering through attrition, are wonderful.  Public golf at its finest.....believe it costs about $25 to play.

BillV

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #60 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
It is apparent that something is lacking inour lives when we approach 70 posts on a thread such as this.If ANGC® didn't host the Masters®, why would this happen?  Boy oh boy does ANGC® have you guys by the short hairs and they don't even want ransom.This topic is crying out for the input of one BarneyF.

Peter Galea

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #61 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Sorry robertWalker, eye candy is not just a way to insult someones' bunkering. On this site we don't need a euphenism to do that. No one types with kid gloves.Speaking of kids, cartoons are "eye candy" for children. All fluff, no substance.
"chief sherpa"

T_MacWood

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #62 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
John aka BarneyFWhy don't you start a seperate thread on trees, so this topic isn't derailed. And while you are at it, start a couple other threads on your difinitions of "the purist" and the "Golden Age" -- I have a feeling those too will be unique. And maybe answer my question on the courses that should be downgraded due to views. On second thought, don't bother.

John Morrissett

Why do So Many Golf Magazines Fail?
« Reply #63 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Matt Ward--Thanks for the information.I certainly agree to the benefits of having the writer and photographer present at the same time.One item that puzzled me: Your reference to a course having a portfolio of photographs.  Does this mean you would let the course supply the photographs for the article?  When the course provides the photographs, do you feel obligated or compelled to let the reader know that the course is providing its own views (literally) of the course?

T_MacWood

Ohio Golf
« Reply #64 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
LouFor me Kidwell's best is Hickory Hills. I don't think he will have prominent place in history, and I don't think he would have considered himself a historic figure -- he was such a selfless and modest man. That is not to take away from his work providing solid affordable tests of golf for the masses, and the fact that he was truly a great gentleman.

BarnyF

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #65 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
BillV,I have been blessed with three children and the privilage of watching the Masters every April....My children sometimes dissapoint me...the Masters never does.

ForkaB

Leven and Lundin Links
« Reply #66 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
TommyThere are bunkers on the 4th at Lundin?  Bunkers are usually the last thing on my mind when trying to cut a 3-iron to an island, plateau green.  Vis a vis TOC, as I've said many times, if they'd only move the Valley of Sin over to the far right side of the green, bringing the road into play both off the tee and for hte second shot, the Links Trust would have a real fine golf hole in 18, but they refuse to listen to me .John12 at Lundin's good for a short blind uphill par 3, but I'm not partial to that genre of golf hole.  8's not a bad hole, just average and very much out of character.  13 would be a lot better if they restored the old green complex back in the trees.  The view is OK, but marred greatly by the urban blight of the Methil/Buckhaven complex is overlooks.   Since we're into lists, let me offer 5 better views in Scotland, just sticking to the South coast of Fife:1st tee at Aberdour16th tee at Burntisland4th(?) green at Anstruther (the one protected by the old gun emplacement)17th tee at KinghornThe marker pole at the top of the hill on the 10th at Elie (particularly if you find your drive has made the green!)If you add clubhouses to the mix, the view from Crail's is surpassed only by Aberdour.PS--shouldn't we be having these discussions BEFORE the tourist season?Rich "off for week in Scotland on Saturday" Goodale

BillV

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #67 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Barn-o-boyI have been overcome by the emptyness of the hype of the Masters® for years now and want to know,is there hope for me in holy scripture of the Masters® program or a Steve Martinesque message in the scoreboard at the tone-a-mint of tournaments?  Is Tiger truly the new Messiah as the Earl of Earl has suggested in SI years ago?  The changes at ANGC® remind me of the crass commonality and "modernization" of the Latin mass of the Roman Catholic Church starting in the 1960's. Kumbaya-lite. Tommy the Tiger has it in italics above.What was before is no longer any good.  Bullshit.  Maybe it would be nice if what was old would truly become new again.What a lot of this is about is the fact that we are on the verge of losing the largest group of remarkable golf courses due to advancing technology.  ANGC® gets it wrong yet again. And we all slurp it up like a drug.

GeoffreyC

Augusta PR campaign due to?
« Reply #68 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
I have been lucky enough to see Augusta in 1997.  The great routing, vast undulating property and amazing green complexes are evident still.  I was no more then 30 yards from Tiger when he hit wedge into 15 on Thursday and he had a shorter approach then that into 11. Let them lengthen it as much as they want.I think the quote that Tommy uncovered from Bobby Jones himself speaks entirely to to issue addressed here "Hootie Johnson, who seems to be welcoming this change to protect the sanctity of the tournament. Something that Bobby Jones once said that, "If the Masters Tournament ever once threatened the sanctity of the club, the event was to be ended immeidately without regard."It is quite obvious that the wishes of Bobby Jones to first run a club where his friends could enjoy the game of golf and second to host an invitational tournament is no longer the case.  Therefore we should accept the FACT that Augusta National is a tournament course and its original features which make it a joy to play for the members are no longer of major priority.  Let it go. Forget about Augusta National and be VERY grateful that no big professional tournaments will ever get to National GOlf Links, GCGC et. al. !!

GarySmith

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #69 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
BarnyF,I just went through this entire thread, and your two posts about trees and wind stood out to me.You're right.

Jim Reilly

Humps and Hollows at Royal Mid Surrey
« Reply #70 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Careful Tommy.... I still have old copies of Orange County Golf where you made your debut as a golf scribe :-). Now I freely admit that I lived at Tustin Ranch for over two years because it was a pleasant place to live and only a 15 minute comute to my office, but I only played golf the course twice in those two years.  Imagine, if you will, how bad a course must be for to live within walking distance and only play it twice in two years.And Tommy, what do you mean, on of Ted's worse courses?  Do you mean you can tell them apart?

Lou_Duran

Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #71 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Three factors are probably driving this phenomenum: 1) consumer demand, 2) safety, 3) elasticity (flexibility to lengthen the course by adding back tees in response to ball and equipment "improvements").  With 65%+ of total rounds being "carted" (90%+ in some parts of the country), proximity of tees to greens is not a major concern.  Cart rentals generally offer substantial profit margins, easily overcoming higher land, construction, and maintenance costs.  Today's golfer also has higher expectations, and the architect is under more pressure to design 18 strong, diverse holes.Most architects today would state that safety and liability are very important condiderations in their designs.  While the ASGCA may not have "official" printed standards, I understand that there are widely accepted "rules-of-thumb" which deal with fairway widths and buffers on parallel holes, distances from property lines to improvements (such as houses), and location of tees relative to the preceeding greens and lines of play.  A course built before safety and liability became so topical can probably get away with an "innocent landowner" defense.  One built since the 1970s would have a hard time making that case.Finally, Dr. MacKenzie recomnended building tees somewhat forward from the preceeding green to allow future lengthening of the course as needed.  I have seen some references in the literature to modern architects who intentionally build flexibility into their designs as they acknowledge that golfers will continue to hit the ball further and further.

Mark_Fine

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #72 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Tom Paul,You wouldn't call it "eye candy" if you associated eye candy with a negative.  That's part of my point.  Some "eye candy", features that probably never see a golf ball, is really good stuff!Mark

John Morrissett

Leven and Lundin Links
« Reply #73 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Rich--You can see the top of the flagstick on the 12th at Lundin, so I would not consider it to be a blind hole.  Even if it were, so what?  Do you not like blind shots?  Do you prefer a course where everything is in plain view?  I think the 12th is a neat hole, tucked into a corner of the property.The tee shot on the 13th is very good, but the green site is the problem. The site tucked around the corner does little for me, and the present site is awfully tight with the trees and to an unimaginative green complex.  I continue to think it would play best as a straight hole.If you are going to downplay the view from the 13th at Lundin, I see no point in continuing this discussion.

Lou_Duran

Ohio Golf
« Reply #74 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Thanks Tom.  That was my assessment of JK as well.  I will make a point of playing Hickory Hills on my next trip to Columbus.

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