Trading Places

[Ran Morrissett]

What if:1. Thomas had gone to Seminole and Ross got Riviera? I imagine seeing Thomas's work in sandy soil would be quite striking after his Pine Valley time and Ross would have given Southern Cal a different kind of course to admire.2. MacKenzie to Fishers Island and Raynor to Cypress. Both courses would still be among the world's best, even though they would be vastly different.3. Doak went to Shadow Creek and Fazio got High Pointe. Both courses would be remarkably different, to say the least  4. What I would NOT want to see would be Dye at Sand Hills and C/C at Kiawah. C/C would not have built the course up to give the sweeping ocean views (which would be a shame) and Sand Hills, well, it couldn't be any better.

[Chris Purdie]

Getting Doak to a place with a limitless budget (especially on maintenance) would be fantastic. The courses Ran and I played (High Point and Wilderness Forest) were great layouts and everything but the conditioning made them sus to the point where it detracted from his work.

[Eddie Murphy]

Dye would have ruined Sand Hills. I'm sorry. He is incapable of leaving a site alone. He would have moved too much dirt, put too many railroad ties out there and imported at least three windmills. The best move Dick Youngscap ever made, keeping Dye away!

[T_MacWood]

Thought provoking trades:MacKenzie at Pinehurst; Ross at Augusta Nat'l.MacDonald/Raynor at Cape Breton; Thompson at YaleFlynn at Winged Foot; Tillinghast at ShinnecockThomas at Kawana; Alison at Bel-AirColt at Prarie Dunes; Maxwell at Swinley Forest

[GeoffreyC]

To Tom MacWood   We already have an idea of what a Tillinghast version of Shinnecock would be.  It's called Bethpage Black!  The topography and soil is very similar. I only wonder if he purposly left the greens rather benign because it was to be a public course.

[T_MacWood]

I was thinking the same thing Geoffrey, although Shinnecock is more open to the elements. Ironically, Flynn's green at Shinnecock are also benign.Also isn't there a dispute surrounding Tillinghast's role at Bethpage. I thought I read somewhere that he wasn't completely happy with the project or his role in its construction. I could be wrong, maybe someone else knows the story.

[Ran Morrissett]

If Tillinghast wasn't happy with his involvement in Bethpage, that is news to me. I have always seen where he considered it a personal favorite - maybe even his very favorite design. I do know he wouldn't be happy in how the course has lost a lot of its sandy nature that gave it more than a vague ressemblance to Pine Valley.As for trading places, Tom, that Cape Breton one in particular strikes a nerve. Thompson was great in working in wild terrain and there is none wilder than Yale. Plus, as magnificent as CBH is as a place, I have never heard anyone gush over particular design features. A Raynor/Macdonald would take care of that.Anyone have their telephone numbers?

[John Sessions]

Are the greens at Shinnecock really benign? I walked the back nine at the last Open and above the hole on any green on the back seemed like death. Maybe that was just with US Open speed greens.

[T_MacWood]

RanI might be confused, but I thought I read that Tillinghast did the initial design but a relatively unknown gentleman actually built the course and in the process made some changes. Something about Tillie loosing interest late in his career. But my memory has been quite spotty and in some cases completely wrong since I started this Tillinghast liquid diet.JohnFor the most part I'd say Flynn's SH greens are benign, the Redan is the work of Raynor, as is the 9th. But then again my memory has been a problem.

[GeoffreyC]

There is a whole chapter on the Bethpage complex in Tillinghast's second book.  In it he raves about the place and its resemblence with Pine Valley.  I think from this account in his own wrtiting he was pleased with the way it turned out.I had been of the opinion that the Rees restoration was great and for the most part it is fine, however, I now realize that the flashed white sand is so much different from the previous look of the place. The picture of EastHampton in the Bill Coore interview reminded me of this.  What a nicer look that is.  It certainly resembles what the Black looked like in the 1970's when I first played there. The Black should have the wild Pine Valley appearance rather than the country club for a day look.I believe as a whole, the greens at Shinnecock are more severe than the Black although at 11-12 on the Stimp many more of them could be difficult. #8, #11, #12, #14 and #15 in particular are reasonable severe. Some like #2, #3, #4, #5, #7 are plat as a pancake.To change the subject a bit- Yale is built on a really wild piece of land but it is very walkable.  One thing among many that I like about the place is the encouragement to lug your bag and get soem real exercise.

[T_MacWood]

The day before playing Shinnecock, I had played Winged Foot-West. In comparsion Shinnecocks green are quite tame.

[Ran Morrissett]

Shinnecock's greens have always reminded me of the Cascades' greens - not a lot of interior movement but rather a broad pitch, generally from back to front. They only give you a headache once you get above the hole - and by then the trap is sprung and you are dead.

[T_MacWood]

The story surrounding Bethpage. Tillinghast designed the course, but when it came time to construct it, I believe 1934, he was told he would have to use WPA men and they would be supervised by an engineer working for the state. Tillie blew up and walked off the project and took a job with the PGA. The state engineer completed the course based on A.W.s plan. Tillinghast never layed eyes on the completed course. That might explain the greens.

[TEPaul]

I was just about to add what Tom Mac put in above. Bethpage was just a part of the massive public works projects of that era. The crews were forced on Tillinghast.There was an extraordinarily powerful land planner at work in and around New York at that time (Hecksher?, I think) who planned and built an amazing array of infrastructure including the Grand Central Parkway, I think the first parkway built in America, many public parks etc.

[Bill Vostinak]

Just one other element of Shinnecock's greens, there are several little areas near the periphery where the greens take a tilt off in another direction, an aid in drainage and an effecive reducer of green size.A little like a drop leaf table, tilted off a little.  Coupled with the small size of the greens it makes middle of the green a good target unless the pins is very front.

[GeoffreyC]

I believe that Robert Moses is the land planner you're referring to.  Good point about the construction workers at Bethpage.  Boy if it had Winged Foot's greens it would be even more amazing.

[TEPaul]

Thanks! Robert Moses is the man-don't know where I got Hecksher.

[Ran Morrissett]

Would Bethpage with Winged Foot's greens be too far over the top, kind of like adding heavy contour to County Down's? I like both courses as they are because of their unusual emphasis on the tee to green aspect of the game.

[T_MacWood]

Winged Foot has some of the most interesting greens I have ever seen. They are no doubt steep in places but there unique contours and unusual movement is what impressed me.I believe any and all courses benefit from interesting greens. I suppose there could be layouts in which very severely contoured greens might be too much, but the contours should still be interesting. Would you consider Pine Valley's greens over the top?

[Ran Morrissett]

No, but Pine Valley is relatively short and has super wide fairways compared to RCD and BB. Again it "makes sense" that PV would have those greens, as compared to the other two.And yes, all greens should hold interest undoubtedly - are the ones at BB really featureless?  My memory is hazy as it has been 13 years since I played there but don't greens like 5, 14, 15, etc. have  quite a bit of back to front pitch?

[T_MacWood]

I can't help with you with Bethpage, I unfortunately haven't seen it. But I'm having trouble trying to think of a good example of greens that are too difficult in combination with rest of the course. Pebble Beach, Oakmont and Oakland Hills all have very severe greens and under certain conditions might be over the top.

[Gib_Papazian]

Back to the original topic, how about trading Tillie for Willie at Olympic and SFCC? Would Olympic be a better course if Tillie did it? Or a bit much. How about if Willie Watson went across Lake Merced?