Pinehurst #4

[DBE]

Tom Fazio's/Pinehurst Resort &CC's complete redo of #4 will open December 10.  They should have renumbered it #9.  Except for the fact that it's on Pinehurst's property, there isn't anything that would remotely remind you of Pinehurst.  180 bunkers and hundreds of small pines (indeginous to the sandhills) were planted.I'll post something in a few days.

[Bill Vostinak]

Back in the days that I really knew nothing about the true quality of a golf course #4 was my third favorite course at Pinehurst after #2 and #6 (Yeah I know I was in the minority there). Six has always been the forgotten third cousin in the Pinehurst family, but still I look forward to playing it on a visit, save the #10 fairway.  I had not played there for at least 10 years as I never could get on the place (#4).  The last few times back I went to #8 and Forest Creek and the re-do of the #1 greens, and of course this year in late April for the DRS what was to become #4/9 was the site for the USGA Open tents.#4 had become sort of a mish-mash of styles with some Ross, MAples, Byrd and RTJ, I believe.  The plans for the new routing shown at the clubhouse showed a routing that incorporated some of the corridors of the old holes, but from David's first post here it seems only corridors through the trees were re-used.  The bulldozer works very well to eliminate fairway contours and my exploration at the #4 site showed me no character at all at the time I had visited in April.I used to enjpy several holes, but I can't remember the numbers well enough to be sure without digging out an old card which I'll do.  I liked the cape par 5 and the two before and I really enjoyed the walk of the routing.  I was sad to see #4 go especially after Fazio's #8 work and Reese's #7 gave me an idea of CCA's ideas of brilliant modern architecture.I don't have very high expectations for #4/9 after having just played Fazio's Cordillera course (Kindly described as white bread elsewhere) prior to #8.  I am not encouraged by your early comments David.It seems out of character of the CCA CC-FAD plan for #2 to have been saved and so well restored.  The speed of the G-2's was really impressive with those contours and restoration of transtions in the DRS outing.Given the costs of a stay at Pinehurst, the Hotel and CCA property have gone to #3 on my list of where to stay in the sand hills except for a minimum stay to play #2 and double back a lot in the round to play #2 more than once.How about  some other non #2 comments on CCA's Pinehurst, too?

[Ward_Peyronnin]

Dear Bill,Have just returned from a memorable stay at the Mid Pines Resort complex and cannot imagine a significantly better golf experience for the value. The mid pines course is so pure Mr. Ross and Pine Needles is fun as well. We particularly enjoyed the caddy program with nearby Methodist College PGA club pro students as this was one of the few times I didn't have a bag dragger to calculate a tip for.I'm curious to know what your #1 & #2 southern hils stays are ahead of Pinehurst and why.

[Bill Vostinak]

WardYou've got the #1 by jove!Mid Pines is used alternatively by the Donald Ross Society with the Pinehurst Hotel and CC for its annual meeting. My wife and I love it there.  That's how we wound up there the first time.  Very very good value, 3 1/2 hr walking rounds at a resort on two great courses, too. Wonderful quiet golfy atmosphere.The two courses Mid Pines and Pine Needles are great fun to play, I especially prefer Mid Pines because of the layout.  Pine Needles is a little longer and more spread out. I really prefer the vistas that one gets on a golf course built on one contiguous piece of land, and the holes at MP are first rate, please don't misinterpret me.  This is a very fine example of Ross at his best.  I recommended it to some guys at another DG last April at their Pinehurst outing (Some of them come to this DG too) and they universally had a wonderful time at MP.I have been off and on to Pinehurst since about 1975.  Used to be able to play #2 nearly every day in the old days.  You could also play in the AM, have too many beers at lunch and play 36 in carts in the afternoon in 3-4 hours. Completely open in the PM then (Except #2) and completely full now.One photograph I regret never taking was of the range at #8 the first day I went to look at the property.  At least 4-500 balls were on the range in topped range (And  a couple thousand on the range proper)after the day of play. The front of the teeing ground looked like a field of yellow flowers.  I can't imagine the pace of play that day! Especially with the cigar chomping, $200 golf shirt wearing, PBGL (Tommy N, don't hurt me!) tag wearing Calloway 22" golf bag toting, cell phone in the ear crowd Pinehurst has tapped recently.  Sure have seen some changes in the pocketbook at the hotel and resort.  At least the food is still good there. Very, very disappointed in the direction taken at #7 and #8 with the architecture.  I can't say I am looking forward to #9, I mean #4.You can damn near go to Bermuda for a week airfare included for the cost of a few days at Pinehurst now.#2 stay is a freebie at a friend's.  I must go try Southern Pines, however, I haven't made it there yet.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bill,If you love Mid Pines, which you clearly and justifiably do, you'll happily find Southern Pines to be of similar quality.  It doesn't have quite the same ambiance of the gorgeous resort, but many of the holes on the property are similar in nature to Mid Pines.For instance, you'll find quite a number of naturally elevated greens, built over the same rolling, pine-infused sand, and lots of strategy.  One thing I learned, perhaps too late in my stay to be of particular value to my scorecard, is that it really pays to "work" your shots, particularly from the tee, against the direction of the side-sloping fairways.  Given the somewhat generous planting of azaleas on the grounds, the course is rather visually spectacular in spots during the spring, which would probably be the optimum time of year to visit.

[Tom_Doak]

David Eger --Can't wait for your account of Pinehurst No. 4.  One of my crew was there last month and painted a less than flattering picture of it.  I guess Tom Fazio is getting tired of people criticizing him for "staying pat" and is trying to be creative again, for better or for worse!

[GeoffreyC]

I stayed at the hotel at Pinehurst Resort this past April for a few days so that I could revisit #2 with the new G2 greens just prior to the open.  I must say that it is really not a good value but for the pleasure of playing #2.  The food is not especially great.  The Donald Ross room at the clubhouse offers the best dinners while breakfast was easily the best meal at the hotel proper. Service is a bit layed back.  I expected more for the money. I saw more than one mistake about where clubs should be for starting times in the AM and a couple of broken drivers (I'm now glad that I switched to a shorter more traditional length). I would stay at the hotel again but only for a day that included 36 holes at #2. Unlike Bill V, I wasn't a fan of #6.  It's carts only and the routing is all over the place with some good tee to green distances and some of the ugliest homes fronting the course I have ever seen.  I also wasn't at all impressed with #8 although palying the back 9 in under par tempered my criticism a wee bit.  After 10 years, I was pleasantly surprised to find #7 to be relatively fun to play.  Not a strategic gem that I would join as a member but fun for a vacation round of golf.I too looked at the routing plan for #4 in the clubhouse and I can only comment on how major the changes will be. as I recall, some of the fairways and green complexes will be used in part but it is for all purposes a new course.  #4 no longer exists and I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to play it 10 years ago during my previous visit.I too enjoyed Pine Needles very much and would include it on any visit to the area.  Can't say the same about my visit to Tobacco Road.  THat's another whole subject.  

[DBE]

I'll make a brief post now and follow with a more detailed one after playing it later this week.Almost nothing recognizable of former course180 pot bunkers to give the course more of a "Scottish" feel and look according to the architectGreens much like #814 of the holes follow the former routing$5 million costCost the same to play as #8 (slightly less than #2)

[C B Macdonald]

Once again the very soul of golf will shriek.  Are there piped in sounds of the Ocean to increase the Scottish feel? Perhaps a sea spray mister a la Arizona in the carts?Are these changes far away in the scope of things to come at the CC-FAD's?

[DBE]

After having played Pinehurst Resort and CC's completely redone by Tom Fazio and team #4 course, here goes a summary:The owners wanted something on campus that could in the minds of wealthy resort guests, somewhat rival #2.  So, they hired TF and let him go.  As I said earlier, 14 of the holes use the original routing.  The new holes are the par threes.  There are 180 bunkers.  All of them are relatively small (very different from the "big scale" everywhere else on the course) and every one of them have the same degree of slope--about 25 degrees so every ball comes to rest in the same place in every bunker.  The greens are the flattest in Moore County once you negotiate the three foot sloped perimeter with the exception of the 229 yard 14th which has two tiers.  Hundreds of trash trees, shrubs, etc. have been planted so the place looks like a nursery, not a golf course.  The overall routing of Donald Ross makes the course better than #8 (yuck) but as you play it and see holes on the other Pinehurst courses (#'s 1, 2 and 3) you wonder why Fazio moved so much dirt and elevated things.  Nearly every tee shot plays downhill so the 7100 yards from the back tees plays shorter.  Best holes are the 400 yard first and 520 yard 13th.  I would only recommend #4 only if:1.  You can't get a freebie on #22.  You can get a freebie on #43.  You can't get on Pine Needles, Mid Pines or Southern Pines4.  You are uncertain whether #8 is better5.  You are showing someone how to screw up a great routing  

[T_MacWood]

DavidI don't know what to make of it. Its hard for me to picture. I'll have to look it over before throwing down my hard earned money.The great thing about #4 were the Ross holes and there were about nine of them left. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 16, 17 & 18 come to mind. The bad thing about #4 were the remaining holes, some blended reasonably well, other were totally out of character. In deciding to remodel #4, they had a choice of trying to work with was left of Ross or trying something unconventional and news worthy.What you have described certainly sounds unconventional and news worthy, which begs the question to why Pinehurst at this time needs to go to these extremes.

[DBE]

Tom, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$The course isn't that bad but PN, MP and SP are much more fun, much better designed and much cheaper.Pinehurst Resort & CC has purchased property from the Jones family and Rees is designing #9.  No doubt the Pinehurst brass will have more control with the design and tree planting than #4.

[Ben DeLow]

Rees is doing #9? Does this mean they've given up trying to reunite the brothers and the old man for the first and only family design? What a shame. The stories that we could have had from that would have been priceless. Now all Pinehurst will get is another shabby Rees design. Just what the world needs.

[T_MacWood]

DavidAfter #6-G.Fazio, #7-ReesJ. and #8-T.Fazio, you would think they might try someone new.I don't think there is an architect alive that has done less with great properties than Rees Jones.   Haig Point, Atlantic, #7, Currituck, Ocean Forest, Sandpines and Nantucket come to mind.  I would think there are very good architects that go a lifetime without one great property.  Is he a great salesman, is he a super nice guy, does he practice mind control?  How do you explain this?

[Rees Jones]

My success boils down to these four crucial points:1. Momentum - all those other people who hired me couldn't be wrong, could they?2. Owners have no idea and can be led like sheep by someone who looks inoffensive3. The people who make the decisions don't read this site4. I don't critize my own work like DoakRegards,Rees "they call me the cash cow" Jones

[DBE]

The only way CCA/Pinehurst Resort could get more property for golf courses was to buy some RTJ family land in the area!  So, they are stuck with a Jones designer and apparantly Rees is the Jones who will/is designing #9.  As I keep saying:  play Pine Needles, Mid Pines or Southern Pines if you want some Donald Ross.