Eclectic 18's

[Tom_Doak]

GOLF Magazine is about to publish a long list of the best golf holes around the world.  No point waiting to discuss it, since with the system they used to compile it, it is bound to be terrible.My question is for everyone to come up with their list of their 18 favorite holes.  You don't have to pick a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, if you don't want to.  And I'm doing this in hopes that you will all pick very different holes, instead of everyone going for 13 at Augusta and 8 at Pebble Beach.Since I'm already on the record in the Confidential Guide -- and since I haven't prepared a list in advance -- I will start with a great one, written by Sir Ernest Holderness in 1928.  Now you'll know how I found some of my "sleeper" courses, but hopefully your lists will help me find some more.

[Sir Ernest Holderness]

Excerpted from GOLF ILLUSTRATED, Jan. 1928:1.  17th at Deal2.  13th at Gleneagles (King's)3.  5th at Burnham & Berrow4.  5th at Westward Ho!  [now hole #4]5.  11th at St. Enodoc  [now #10]6.  2nd at Royal St. George's7.  5th at St. Enodoc  [now #4]8.  2nd at Prince's  [R.I.P.]9.  4th at Dornoch10. 15th at Royal St. George's11. 13th at St. Andrews Old12. 13th at Pennard [!?]13. 12th at St. Andrews Old14. 17th at Prestwick15. 17th at Pennard16. 8th at Rye  [now hole #5]. . . Oh, no!  I can't find his last two holes!  But there's plenty here to get you going -- and probably not one hole you'd have picked!!P.S. Can you imagine getting to Pennard, St. Enodoc, and Dornoch in the 1920's?!

[Tom_Doak]

Bonus round -- my own best 18 holes, with no attempt at political correctness.1.  1st at Lost Dunes / 3802.  2nd at Lost Dunes / 4403.  11th at Lost Dunes / 4404.  5th at Stonewall / 2055.  6th at Stonewall / 4466.  6th at Apache Stronghold / 3217.  11th at Stonewall / 5888.  11th at Apache Stronghold / 1509.  14th at High Pointe / 39610. 10th at Black Forest / 54511. 13th at High Pointe / 43412. 7th at High Pointe / 34713. 13th at Riverfront / 18014. 14th at Riverfront / 55015. 14th at Beechtree / 43816. 13th at Black Forest / 35017. 17th at Apache Stronghold / 23018. 18th at Stonewall / 456Total [just for the record].  Par 71 / 6,896 yards

[Ran Morrissett]

The world's perfect course must be near water and would look like this:1. 5 Portrush - 380y(let's do this right)2. 3 County Down - 440y(Ulster's best)3. 14 Brancaster - 420y (favourite blind shot in golf)4. 14 Nairn - 210y (stunner toward the North Sea)5. 2 Royal Aberdeen - 530y(as crumpled links land as I know)6. 7 Pennard - 340y(the world's prettiest breather)7. 3 Tenby - 420y(famed green site on a shelf)8. 6 Portstewart 140y(table-top green that is hard/impossible to hold)9. 9 Brancaster - 390y(tide or not-awesome even if it is a forced carry)going out par is 35, 3270 yards10. 9 Lahinch - 380y(another stunning downhiller to get the nine going)11. Pennard 16 - 490y(reachable par five in a setting matched only by Cypress)12. 7 Rye - 165y (do or die)13. 10 Maidestone - 380y(yes, the 10th not the 9th) 14. 5 Dornoch - 370y(as good as Foxy for my money)15. 5 Brora -420y(over wild ground)16. 13 Prestwick - 460y(the world's best unfair hole)17. 11 St. Andrews - 175y(my 2nd favourite par three in golf and favourite hole in Scotland)18. 2 Porthcawl - 430y(thrilling finish that let's you know you are playing links golf)coming in par is 35, 3,270 yards (talk about balanced nines)."Par" is 70-ish and the length is 6540yards, so the course is manageable if you are still standing after the 4th. There is only one set of tees as it is a men's only club. Dogs are allowed. Clubhouse: Red Tail which sets on top of the hill, overlooking the proceedings below.[Note:  David][Note:  David]

[Ran Morrissett]

Evaluating one's own work is tough to do, as Tom's attempt clearly indicates.I have not seen Apache, Riverfront, or Stonewall     so I am slightly disadvantaged. Therefore, my only recourse is to voice a strong opinion. I would ask the people in the know to consider these facts:1. Isn't 11 at High Pointe better than 11 at Apache?2. Isn't 12 at High Pointe better than half the par fours on Tom's list?3. Don't AT LEAST one of the par fours at Heathlands (7, 11, 16, and/or 18) deserve to be on it? 4. That this continued and repeated love affair with 13 at BlackForest needs to stay in the closet?5. That if 7 at Lost Dunes had some barn behind it, it would be a better finishing hole than 18 at Stonewall?In the name of justice, won't someone agree?[Note:  David]

[Sir Thomas MacWood]

Golf was born on sandy soil. How many truely great golf courses of the world are there and how many of them are not on sand, inland or links? This is my eclectic U.S. All-Sand 18:1. Sand Hills-5492. Lost Dunes-4253. Pine Valley-1854. Pebble Beach-3275. Fishers Is.-2076. Crystal Downs-3847. Pine Valley-5858. Crystal Downs-5509. Cypress Point-29110. Prarie Dunes-18511. Sand Hills-40812. Cypress Point-41113. Pine Valley-44614. Shinnecock Hills-44715. Eastward Ho!-14216. Cypress Point-23317. National-37018. Seminole-417Out 3503 par33In  3059 par37    6562 par70Forgive me for excluding many worthy canidates(I tried to include Pinehurst No.2, but the course really isn't conducive to these eclectic lists)and I also probably should have had more courses represented, but there so many I'm not familiar with.But for the all important ballance of challenge and fun, this course is hard beat.

[T_MacWood]

Sorry, Out is par-37 and In is par-33.

[Ran Morrissett]

Sir Tom Mac,That is the best eclectic course I have seen anyone ever come up with - no wonder you were knighted.Cheers,

[Mark Thawley]

What a great way to procrastinate on writing my thesis.  There is still a lot I haven't seen, but here are few that may not be on many lists.1-#6 Old Course, 374, par-42-#6 High Pointe, 516, par-53.#13 High Pointe, 434, par-44.#5 Kingsley Club, 210, par-35.#16 Meadow Club, 333, par-46.#1 Crystal Downs, 460, par-47- #14 Crystal Downs, 147, par-38- #12 Walton Heath, 371, par-49- #16 Walton Heath, 510, par-510- #16 Formby, 127, par-311- #6 Western Gailes, 506, par-512- #12 San Francisco, 408, par-413- #6 Dornoch, 163, par-314- #3 Cruden Bay, 286, par-415- #16 Addington, 496, par-516- #5 Augusta National, 435, par-417- #17 Apache Stronghold, 230, par-318- #18 Wawashkamo 378, par-4

[T_MacWood]

In 1942 Life magazine asked Robert Trent Jones to come up with his own eclectic 18.

[Robert Trent Jones]

Excerpted from LIFE July 20, 1942:1. 13th-Pine Valley par42. 11th-Merion par43. 10th-Greenbriar(Old White) par44. 18th-Pinehurst #2 par45. 13th-Augusta Nat'l. par56. 13th-Belleview Biltmore par47. 6th-Dallas par38. 18th-Pebble Beach par59. 16th-Cypress Point par310. 18th-Cherry Hills par411. 11th-Interlachen par412. 14th-Olympia Fields par413. 17th-Oakland Hills par314. 17th-The Country Club(Oh) par415. 4th-Lido par516. 10th-Winged Foot par317. 13th-The Country Club(Mass) par418. 7th-Ekwanok par5Any comments?

[Lackey]

A quick try without too much review and afterthought:1.  Hole #1 St. Andrews, Burn   370 yards, Par 42. Hole #17 St. Andrews, Road   461 yards, Par 43. Hole #4 National Golf Links, Redan   197 yards4. Hole #7  Crystal Downs Country Club  Par 4, 335 yards5. Hole #17  Muirfield, Par 5, 542 yards6. Hole # 18 Pinehurst No. 2,  Par 4, 436 yards7. Hole # 7  Pine Valley, Par 5 578 yards8. Hole #8 Troon, Par 3, 126 yards, Postage Stamp9. Hole #9  Pine Valley, Par 4, 432 yards10. Hole #15 Teeth of the Dog, Dominican Republic, Par 4, 384 yards11. Hole # 6 Cruden Bay, Par 5, 529 yards12. Hole #5 Mid Ocean, Cape, Par 4, 433 yards13. Hole #7 Pebble Beach, Par 3, 120 yards14. Hole #16 Seminole, Par 4, 393 Yards15. Hole #13  North Berwick , Par 4, 382 yards, Pit16. Hole #9 Crooked Stick Golf Club,  Par 5, 525 yards17. Hole # 8  Ballybunion, Par 3, 153 yards18. Hole # 11  Ballbunion, Par 4, 449 yardsOr you can just drop me off at The North Berwick Golf Club and pick me up in about 20 years.  

[John Morrissett]

Arranging the holes would give me a headache (and take another hour), so I will simply list here the holes I would include (similar to what Nicklaus did in his pretty good video tape 6-10 years ago).7 at Pebble Beach/ 110 yards;5 at Royal Worlington and Newmarket/ 1554 at NGLA/ 18516 at Cypress Point/ 225 yards10 at Riviera/ 3108 at Pine Valley/ 32513 at North Berwick/ 3605 at Royal Portrush/ 3809 at Maidstone/4204 at Fishers Island/ 4205 at Mid-Ocean/ 4256 at The Creek/ 460 4 at Royal Melbourne (West)/ 4605 at Merion/ 4703 at Prestwick/ 48516 at Shinnecock Hills/ 54018 at Kapalua Plantation)/ 56014 at St. Andrews (Old)/ 570

[Bill Vostinak]

I'm so lazy, no yardagesPar3'sShinnecock 11Royal Dornoch 6NGLA 4Pine Valley 5   Par5'sSFGC 9Plainfield 16Muirfield 17Royal Aberdeen 2Par 4'sPinehurst#2 5Winged Foot West 11Mid Ocean 4MidOcean 5Pinehurst #2 3Royal Aberdeen 9North Berwick 14Shinnecock 14Seminole 6Pine Valley 13Subject to changeOnly one redan

[GeoffreyC]

Without much thought here are the ones that come off the top of my head.Par 3'sBethpage Black #17Yale #9St Andrews #11Pebble Beach #17Par 5'sMuirfield #17Cruden Bay #5Pebble Beach #14St Andrews #14Par 4'sBethpage Black #5Bethpage Black #15Royal Dornoch #14Pinehurst #2  #3North Berwick #17Winged Foot West #18Shinnecock Hills #9North Berwick #14 (Perfection)St Andrews #17Cruden Bay #8 (could have been #3 as well)

[rkg]

I am taking a little different spin on this topic.  The best 18 holes I have played this year.  With the criteria being holes I thought were inspiring, fresh, unique, and had impact on my thought and understanding of architecture.  It may leave a few out, but I will put them in order.1. Chicago Golf -love the scale and the green      Honorable Mention -  Merion, Misqaumicut, Lost Dunes (great bunkering, )2. Lost Dunes     HM - Misquamicut, Talking Stick North3. Riverfront ( great green )     HM - Merion4. Shoreacres5. Merion (probably my favorite hole this year)     HM - Culver Academy -lesson in grass bunkering6. Apache Stronghold     HM - St. Louis CC7. Chicago Golf Club8. Apache Stronghold - how to turn what many would initially see as nondescript, into a very intersting hole.9. Misquamicut     HM - St Louis CC, Merion (neat green)10. Shoreacres11. Charles River - neat lesson in Ross style     HM - Lost Dunes (great approach shot and green), Apache Stronghold12. Charles River - imaginative use of terain     HM - Chicago Golf- manufactured, yet really cool13. Harrison Hills - easy to see why Doak skidded to a stop along highway.     HM  - Shoreacres14. Riverfront- Pure Doak green finshes wonderful hole, with great bunker placement     HM - Harrison Hills - wonderful green and interesting hole on very flat terrain15. Harrison Hills - completes the trifecta, anyone who has seen it will understand.     HM - Lost Dunes -cape hole with great apprach and bold views16. Merion17. Chicago Golf     HM - Atlantic City CC - The Ghost Hole Doesnt fit criteria, but spent five months shaping on site and never saw this hole or its location.  Does it exist?18. Pete Dye     HM - Harrison Hills - would have given it the nod for use of terrain, but Langford already has most of the back side.          Misquamicut - hole I originally did not like much but has grown and grown on me in last 10 years.That was probably more informative for me than for anyone else on the site.  Thanks for the outlet.

[David Staebler]

Course 1 (Two Redans-Old World & New World)1  Merion 362  42  Huntingdon Valley 415  43  National Golf Links 426  44  National Golf Links 196  35  Bethpage (black) 435  46  Dornoch 160  37  Pine Valley 585  58  Cruden Bay 270  49  Brancaster 404  410 Maidstone  400  411 St Andrews 172  312 Cypress Point 409  413 Pine Valley 446  414 St Andrews 567  515 N Berwick 192  316 Seminole 393  417 St Andrews 461  418 St Andrews 354  4(35)3253+(35)3394 = (70)6647Course 21  Brancaster 410  42  Manufacturers 400  43  Merion 181  34  Bethpage (black) 520  55  Royal Worlington & Newmarket 155  36  Seminole 440  47  St Andrews 360  48  Brancaster 478  59  Maidstone 420  410 Lancaster 460  411 Notts 365  412 Chicago 414  413 Muirfield 153  314 Dornoch 445  415 Merion 366  416 Shinnecock 560  517 Bethpage (black) 215  318 Seminole 417  4(36)3364+(35)3395 = (71)6759

[Ran Morrissett]

to Kye:1. Charles River sounds neat - what's the story? I guess it was within one hour from Ross's summer office and received plenty of attention?2. 15 at Harrison Hills must be awesome to beat out Shoreacres.

[rkg]

Ran,In answer to your questions1.  Charles River- It is close to ross's RI home, or at least in the vicinity using 1920 travel methods.  Don't know much of the history ( it  had bunkers "restored" by ron prichard recently), but one interesting note, my member friend claims they have over 50 people with handicaps under 5.  Not sure I believe him, but the greens at the course are super, some of the best contouring I have seen and one would have to have to learn a great short game to succeed here, so maybe they do have a lot of good players. Hopefully they won't get too carried away with green speed and make them a joke.  The day I played they were about an 8 or 9, perfect for the contours, but the guys I played with were apologizing that they were slow.   11 at charles river is at first view a reverse, modified redan type hole.   However,  If you carry a big bunker about 210 on the left, the shot feeds downhill and right to a sort of partial punchbowl (eloquent description isn't it}.  I am not that familiar with a lot of Ross stuff, but I had not seen a hole of his like this.12 - is  a roller coaster fairway with a blind, diagonal, steep hillside rewarding a shot down the right side, (but not too far right!), and keeping shots left hanging at the top of the hill.  A little like a mirror image of 10 at Augusta with an uphill tee shot.  The green, set into another hillside with a bunker protecting the left side, is about 130 following a good drive and is wicked fun(using an appropriate new england term).  I think the reason I like it so much is that it is the type of hole which would be bulldozed into something "playable" today.  Its rollercoaster fairway is a hell of a lot of fun to play and look at. It presents a lot more challenge on the tee shot, and with interesting sloping lies for the appoach, always will provide a new and intereting test.  It is so contradictory to what most modern golf design gives us, and really makes you realize how stupid and lazy it is to automatically bulldoze terrain to fit into a certain expected formula, rather than think and imagine a routing to utilize the terrain. 2. Harrison Hills - I grew up on a Langford course in southern Illinois, and was in awe of some of the wild stuff here.  15 is a short (today) dogleg right with a green pushed up with STEEP, DEEP(flat bottom) bunkers on each side.  It was more interesting to me than 15 at Shoreacres probably because it was so over the top (I think 15 at shoreacres would hold more interest over a long period, but for a one time impression Harrison Hills wins, maybe because you just are not expecting this in the Middle of Nowhere, Indiana. And my soft spot for the underappreciated Langford.) The whole course makes you realize how much more adventureous, and imaginative design was in this era. PS - Tim Liddy did a very good job matching the new nine to this course on a much less interesting piece of ground. Question for Tim Liddy - Number 12 is indiscernable from the original nine, so much so that I thought it possibly was original.  It does not seem to fit into the original nine hole routing so I assume it is your work.  If it is new, you deserve a huge amount of credit for understanding Langford greens style, and then executing it.  Along the same lines, where did the original routing place the tees for what is now # 13? What was the original #3 like, looks like it was a pretty neat cape style?PS  Great to "see" you on this board.

[TEPaul]

David Staebler:I can't believe the 6th at Seminole (Hogan's favorite)is 440yds, unless they added about 30, but I don't see where there would be room.Kye:I see you really like those two heaving fairways #1 & #9 at Misquamicut. But how about the short (274yd.) #4? Also has the heaving fairway, is driveable, well bunkered and a green sloping from front to back and some great contours? It just might be one of the neatest holes I ever saw and can you imagine what it could offer in match play if was routed at like #16?

[rkg]

Tom, You caught my weakness for the undulating fairways!!  I was re-reading my post and noticed my theme of holes with undulations.  I think it may be why shoreacres did not do as much for me,  it is very flat in the playing areas.  Even though it is noted for  the dramatic ravines, you are generally hitting over them from very level lies. Your point on #4 at Misquamicut is a great one.  I never thought of it in the context of late in the round.  I have played it as # 13 when starting on 10, but you are right it would be amazing at say 16 or 17.  I always try to drive it, and have only succeeded twice in 10 years.  Even though it is usually hardpan I still keep thinking  I will hit the perfect shot or I can miss right and  get up and down .... but I never do, and often make five!  That green is really special and especially interesting for those that are hitting blind from one of the valleys short of the green.  Most people overlook that hole, but it, along with a lot of others at MC is way more than meets the eye on first look.  Too bad they took down the buffer of trees near the tee and exposed the house.  It was much more "private" before the tree removal.  Most of the  tree removal at MC was good, but they went to far at the tee on 4.  It has no bearing on the hole or agronomy, yet now you feel like your in the guys driveway.I was also thinking about #6 green when making this list.  Isn't that an amazingly good green! Have you ever looked at the far back right corner where the green originally extended.  Talk about a scary, but fun pin.  If you have not noticed, check it out next year,  I have a feeling you will be back. PS - I am going to be in Philly over Thanksgiving and have a call into H Smith for golf, you interested?  You can e-mail me at kygol@worldnet.att.net if you are.

[Bill Vostinak]

How could I have left off CBM's Alps, #3 at NGLA.Too much on the proverbial plate, apropos for the week involved!Revisions obviously necessary over the THanksgiving weekend, yardages and order included.

[TEPaul]

Kye:You see, great minds think alike! That's telpathic because I was going to launch into praises about #6 green but I had to go.#6 is just amazing and I can't get it out of my mind. I hit a bunch of really good tee shots there last summer and I just could not believe how much work I had to do! I just think the hole looks so cool (sort of amorphous except the bank and the bunker-I can't remember the bunker that well) but there is more subltle strategic stuff going on on and around that green than I ever saw.Sure I would love to play-I will email you. Is that Hank Smith you're playing with?PS I got a problem. The Maidstone Bowl and the Misquamicut tournament are the same time. What am I going to do? Terrible problem to have, isn't it?

[rkg]

Helicopter?

[Tim_Liddy]

Kye #12 is a new hole, glad you like it. One out of nine isn’t too bad.  Langford’s nine is so great.  I agree with you on hole #15, and Hole #14 is also amazing.  The bunkering on Langford’s holes is so much better than what I did. Luckily, the owner is letting me go back and redo some of my bunkers to better match Langfords.#13 tees were, and are still there, adjacent to #18 fairway.  This hole doglegs around #18 tee (I am sure they had fewer players then).  #12 was a 90-degree dogleg left over OB.  Very eccentric hole, but very Langford, in that a hill turn the fairway sharply (Daytona Raceway)  The best thing I did was leaving all of Langford’s work intact.  It is all still there.