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Bob Ellington

Voting in a vacuum
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
Ran - I wonder how many scratch golfers would agree with you?

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
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« Reply #26 on: November 19, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
Bob,Please don't take this wrong, but how less than one percent of golfers view something is not but so important.When Watson dismantled the field at the Open at Muirfield, the best pros in the world had absolute fits at North Berwick in the qualifying rounds - they were missing greens by twenty yards into the breeze. I have no doubt that there is more than sufficient challenge at NB to test golfers of all levels. So what if the pro catches NB on a still day and has a 64 vs a 71 at Oakmont? Does that make Oakmont a more complete test? GIVE ME A BREAK.

Rater Policeman Doak

Voting in a vacuum
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
Dearest Ran,Be careful, you are starting to paint yourself into a corner.In response to the general question here, I believe that most raters do vote their conscience.  Some, in fact, go too far -- deliberately rating some courses higher or lower than they really think to try and move them up or down on the list.  I tried to avoid this at GOLF by confining the ratings to A through F -- 1 to 10 gives more scope for politics.However, personal prejudice plays a huge part in each rater's ballot.  Tour pros love courses they've won on [and tend to win on courses they love].  Scratch players love "tough but fair" tests.  Everyone loves where they play well and/or where they've been treated well.  Ran loves links courses and anything touched by Seth Raynor.I like courses which are different -- which add something to the totality of golf architecture.  North Berwick is different.  So is Oakmont.  Medinah is not.  High Pointe certainly was, but as I start to build more courses, it becomes less so.  That's why a rater's opinion should change over time.But I do worry when a rater starts being too consistent in his voting -- when every Seth Raynor course fits his acid test of being "the place he would rather play."  Somehow, deep down, his choices are based on a formula of what he's looking for -- and many raters do have their own.Question thyself, man Down Under.

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
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« Reply #28 on: November 20, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
Dear Copper,These scurrilous attacks agaonst a new father are outrageous. Have you no decency?You have confused me with Ted "They call me Biarritz" Sturges. I have only played Raynor's best (Camargo, SA, Fishers, Yeamans and Yale) - should I like them less because one man did them?  The only two Raynor courses that you and I disagree on materially is Fishers (and I can release the Hound of the Baskervilles (ie Joohn Morrissett) on you if you don't come around to thinking it is world top 20) and the stern but fair test at Yeamans (the completed revision of which you had not seen). As for being a lover of links golf (I have in fact been called worse), last time I was driving out of Heathrow, I passed you trying to cross the road at Worplesdon. You were in the process of playing your 43rd heathland course of the week, so please, don't accuse me of bias.It seems to me that you doth protest too much and have just painted your goodself into the opposite corner in your quest for things that add to "the totality of golf architecture." In that quest, if a Seth MacKenzie happened to just ton it and do 20 all universe courses on varied but sensational property, you are implying that you would not vote 20 such courses into the world top 100 because the totality of golf architecture would suffer?Any self-imposed rule skews any ballot by definition, and the judge finds you guilty on this most grevious account. How do you plead?The judge has already released me to go find any links course that Raynor may have built.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
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« Reply #29 on: November 20, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
I plead Not Guilty.I didn't make a hard-and-fast rule limiting how many top 100 courses any architect should have.  I just said that unless his style evolves, all his work starts to look the same, and none of it is quite as significant individually.Bill Coore described it perfectly in his interview, by saying that he and Ben are trying to build different kinds of courses, based on the land and their clients' needs.  Pete Dye's style evolved significantly over time, too.  And that's what I'd like to achieve.Seth Raynor's style didn't evolve much.  Maybe you just haven't hit the saturation point yet, but after you've seen Chicago Golf and Lookout Mountain and CC of Fairfield and Westhampton [if I can get you on all of them], the top-100 line will start to get more fuzzy, and you'll realize that the only thing separating most of these is ambience, even though they all have a great deal of it to recommend them.

John Sessions

Voting in a vacuum
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
I am scared to get in the middle but it seems like people should enjoy the course they are playing for what it is worth, irrespective of who designed it. If there is a similar designed course in the next state, should that affect your thoughts on the merit of the design you are playing? For me personally, it doesn't.Having said that, I am sure glad Dye's style continued to evolve because it was too much in your face.

Tom_Egan

Voting in a vacuum
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
Ted --It's with great regret that I interrupt this delicious Doak/Morrissett thing that seems to be going on.  Interesting to see the differences of opinion between one who has done it vs. one who has thought about it.  Maybe similar to eavesdropping on a conversation between James Bond and Inspector Clouseau.Nevertheless, you asked me whether I would rank Baltusrol Upper ahead of the Lower, as you would.  The answer is no.If I were ranking strictly on the basis of my personal enjoyment, as seems to be the mode these days, I would go with the Upper every time.  It's a prettier course, equally well conditioned (usually), and suits my feeble game much better.  I would love to have the self discipline to be able to rank courses simply on the basis of my own pleasure.  Nothing simpler, and how easy it must be to distinguish #106 from #107.  When I rank courses, though, I tend to include other, some would say, extraneous factors like resistance to scoring, history and tradition, and how the course might stand up to high level play -- stern but fair test issue.  I try not to be influenced by how I play, and try to consider the usual course condition rather than that on the day I played, if they differ.  I admit I might be influenced by the congeniality of my companions and by the accoutrements, amenities and hospitality of the club or course staff.  These non-golf course issues that come into play are a weakness in my "system" but I have not been able to eradicate them.  Bottom line:  I would choose the Lower over the Upper every day on any list of "Greatest Courses" (Golf Digest terminology) or "Top Courses" (Golf Magazine terminology).  Not by much, but enough to be clear cut.  Another example you would relate to:  on a different thread on this site, there was a discussion of French Lick vs. Crooked Stick.  I would choose Crooked Stick as the "Greater" or "Top" course 101 times out of 100.  I would never choose it as the more enjoyable to play.Now that I've finished revealing my fatal "rating frailties", you may dismiss my opinions forevermore.  I guess I'm just trying to be more literal than others about the terms "Great" and "Top", and not substituting "My perception of pleasure".  That doesn't make me a bad person, does it?One other thing.  Some of this hairsplitting such as between #87 and #88 seems absurd in anything as naturally imprecise and subjective as course rankings.  I know that there's no way to get completely around this, but I sure liked the old "decile" system used by Golf Digest where, within each group of 10, the courses were ranked in alpha order.  (How nice for the people at every course in the "Second 10" to claim their's was #11).One additional last thing:  The above method (or non-method) just seems to work best for me.  I think it's great that we all have our own concepts, as long as they work for us.  That's why I wanted to get clarification about Ran's Rules.  Now when I look at his rankings, I know what they mean -- that's the only important thing to me, that I can understand the point of view.Now -- back to the main event, please.

Bob Ellington

Voting in a vacuum
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
I think it is safe to say that Tom Doak brings an architect's perspective to this discussion. I read Coore's comments as saying that by building different style courses, it keeps him fresh and challenged as an architect.Undoubtedly, this is of appeal to Tom Doak and something he would appreciate. At the same time, I think if Coore/Crenshaw always keep doing things different, they will force upon themselves designs that are less appealing - and that would be a shame.Yes, they have taken artistic chances and perhaps benefited personally from the experience but if the end course is worse off for this experimentation, then I would feel cheated as the owner of that site.

Lackey

Voting in a vacuum
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
In rating golf courses I hope raters appreciate golf holes with strong ideas and strategy.  These holes can be based on great old fundamental ideas, modern ideas and/or site specific ideas, but the THOUGHT behind them is hopefully the most important characteristic.  Isn’t that why we love MacKenzie, Raynor, etc.  Each golf hole is wonderfully thought out with consideration to the site, the golf shot and the rhythm of the round.

Ted_Sturges

Voting in a vacuum
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
Agree with Tom Doak and John Sessions that Pete Dye's style evolved over time.Disagree that it was too much "in your face" at the start.  Give me the 1960's stuff over the rest of it any day.  The Golf Club, Harbour Town and Crooked Stick (before the major changes for the 91 PGA), represent some of the best work he has ever done.Yes, he evolved, but did he "improve"?  To Tom Doak:  Is evolution of style a good thing if the courses aren't as good?  Maybe Raynor was a pretty smart guy.

T_MacWood

Voting in a vacuum
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
TedI agree. Unfortunately very few are familiar with his early work. I would hazzard a guess that there are members of Crooked Stick that don't realize the changes that their course has undergone.The man has been so influencial to modern design, that I sometimes wonder if he isn't constantly trying to out due himself. His early designs, Casa De Campo included, are very natural appearing, more subtle than his more controversial earthworks(although in fairness, Crooked Stick & The Golf Club were pretty shocking in there day).There appears to have been times when even  he questioned his boldness, Long Cove was reported to be in response to the severity, at the time, of TPC.I wonder if his 18th holes are a result of his pension to out due himself, they sometimes appear to be an attempt to out due his previous 17 holes. On ballance though, I shudder at the thought of where design would be today without his bold and eclectic thinking.

Tim_Liddy

Voting in a vacuum
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
Mr. Dye's style has evolved in a positive manner for the past ten years. Bulle Rock, Whistling Straits, and Colleton River, show wonderfull new directions in golf course architecture.  The best illustration of this is that he is the only architect today that other architects make a point to study and emulate his recent work.  

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Voting in a vacuum
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 1999, 07:00:00 PM »
to Tom Egan:If Ted played 25 rounds on both courses, he too would end up preferring the Lower to the Upper. Tom's point is well taken: the Upper is the prettier and easier of the two layouts and thus in many respects, it will appeal more readily to many people at first glance. But over time, the sameness of the challenge of the Upper going out along the mountain versus the Lower which has no discernible pattern, and yes, I do believe the Lower would end up appealing more.