Pine Valley...again

[GeoffreyC]

Mike-

If you look at the architecture and try to make comparisons between Victoria (a nice modern course) and Prairie Dunes, Seminole and NGLA (I have not played the others) its difficult to see the reason or rationale in the relative standings.  Of course the criteria you and I use most certainly differs from the GD ones and the panelists have to go by Mr. Whitten's rules.  Ran's test of looking for world class golf holes for world class (read- ranked) golf courses is a good one in this example. Does Victoria have golf holes that approach the 2nd or 8th at Prairie Dunes?  Does it have anything like the 4th, 6th or 17th and 18th at Seminole?  How about the 3rd, 4th , 6th , 8th or 17th at NGLA?  

Readers can look in Ran's great set of course writeups to see what I'm talking about.  

[T_MacWood]

GD's architectural tastes are much different than my own illlustrated by Muirfield Village, Scioto and Double Eagle's architectural/golfing rating being higher than The Golf Club. In fact The Golf Club's over all rating is surprisingly low - I guess not enough shock and awe.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom MacWood:

We rarely agree but your point on The Golf Club is spot on. The layout is easily among the 2-3 best that Pete ever did and yet it comes in at #56?

The Golf Club is easily among the 25 best courses in the USA and is one of Pete's supreme efforts.

To the rest of the treehouse:

Whenever I hear the words "tradition" and "walking" I also hear the word a-d-j-u-s-t-m-e-n-t. Nah, don't mind me -- I still believe the casinos in AC believe in giving the better an even shake.

[Chris Kane]

Prior to adding Tradition points:
Pacific Dunes #8
Sand Hills #9
Afterwards
Pacific Dunes #47
Sand Hills #38

Is it just me, or is there something seriously wrong with the methodology when this can happen?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

TEPaul,

I believe the point that most are interested in and should be the point is are there trees inside any of those original wide fairway lines......

If you can come up with anything that proves there are no trees inside those wide original fairway lines then prove me wrong.

You are the one alleging that trees are inside the original fairway lines on # 15.  Shouldn't you have the responsibility of verifying and substantiating your statement, which is a criticism.

From what I saw on # 15 no trees on the right are inside the original fairway lines, if you have documentation otherwise, please supply it.  If not, then you shouldn't make those allegations.

Tom MacWood,

I would dispute the amount of time that Dr AM was on site, but I'm unable to get to reference sources at the present.
When I do, I'll respond.

My point is: that noone knows what DR AM would have wanted to change, but it is not illogical to conclude that Bobby Jones would have carried his architectural banner forward, resisting changes that Dr AM would have opposed, and endorsing changes that he felt Dr AM would have endorsed.

If we are to believe that this was a collaboration, and partially the result of Bobby Jones's architectural concepts, then changes made by him would seem to be valid, in in the architectural spirit originally intended.

[T_MacWood]

Pat Mucci said:

Tom MacWood,

Don't answer the questions in terms of relativity, answer them in finite numbers/answers.

How many times was he there pre, during and post construction ?

Now you don't like my facts. Feel free to dipsute all you want, but I'm affraid those are the facts. The point you wanted to make about MacKenzie not spending much time at ANGC doesn't hold water based on the facts.

Last year I suggested you read David Owen's book and I commend you for picking it up (if you will recall the book claims MacKenzie and not Jones deserves the bulk of the design credit). Let me suggest you buy MacKenzie's 'Spirit of St.Andrews' -- in it you will find AM's attitude toward changes to his work.

[TEPaul]

Patrick Mucci said:

"If we are to believe that this was a collaboration, and partially the result of Bobby Jones's architectural concepts, then changes made by him would seem to be valid, in the architectural spirit originally intended."

Patrick:

Then why don't you smoke this one for a while?

"I don't see any need for a tree on a golf course," Jones once told journalist Alistair Cooke while the two sat on Jones' Augusta National cabin porch, looking out at the tenth hole."

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

TEPaul,

Then why did he leave thousands of them on the property, and plant many during construction ?

[Jeff_Lewis]

I noticed a request for the list without Tradition, so I brought this thread back up to the first page.  See page 3 of this thread.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Tom,

I understand your perspective. Maybe it is about the question that is being asked, not how it is being answered.

The Table lists Tradition, but the article uses the term Ambiance. The question asked of raters, from the GD website, was..."How well does the overall feel of the golf course reflect or uphold the traditions of the game?" That actually looks like a question that attempts to get away from bias toward older, tournament-tested courses. But the results still are tilted that way, yes.? Why would Winged Foot East and West have dramatically different answers to the above question?

Ambiance also has an "age factor" to it as well.  Courses that are 0 to 10 years old get 0% of their Ambiance points.  Courses 11 to 20 years old get 10%.  Courses 21 to 30 years old get 20% and so on.  A course needs to be 100 years old or older to get 100% of their Ambiance points...