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Mike_Cirba

Pine Valley...again
« on: March 27, 2003, 01:31:49 PM »
I just got word (sorry for pre-empting BillV who provided the word) that Pine Valley is once again #1 on Golf Digest's latest ranking of Top 100 courses.

Any guesses which course is #2?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Pine Valley...again
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2003, 01:33:16 PM »
See how right WE are, Mike?  All hail the greatness of the Golf Digest list!   ;D

I told you I'd chortle either way.

I have no idea what might be #2 but whatever it is, it's gonna deserve to be there.

It's so fun being infallible....  ;)

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Pine Valley...again
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2003, 01:35:37 PM »
Let's just say that #2 has had distance added and fairways tightened for major tournament golf.   ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Pine Valley...again
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2003, 01:45:01 PM »
Damn, now you have me intrigued.  That could apply to the former #1, as they sure as shit did that for the last USOpen... but it also could apply to the other fine Open site which to me is not even the best course in its zip code... Are we talking Native American-head logo here... hell that would make me chortle even more... and make me long to here Matt Ward's take....

If it's the one that makes the most sense - the one that to me is bettered by it's adjacent neighbor, well... you guys are gonna have a really hard time giving too much crap about this list!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Pine Valley...again
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2003, 01:48:23 PM »
Tom;

Unfortunately, the answers are no, and no.  

Sorry to be a tease.    :D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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GeoffreyC

Re: Pine Valley...again
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2003, 01:48:58 PM »
TH

Its one you didn't vote on.  If you ever do get a vote then your title as Americas Guest will be solidified for ALL TIME.

How's that for an easy clue  :)
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David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley...again
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2003, 01:49:03 PM »
Is #2 currently insulting the women of the US Military?  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

THuckaby2

Re: Pine Valley...again
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2003, 01:57:54 PM »
Oh crap.  All my chortling is for naught.  Damn I wanted the LI one to get this...

The holy grail for all America's Guest candidates as #2 is not making me chortle, and you guys do know how fun chortling is - you now have ammo to do so yourselves, at least for #2, by my reckoning.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Pine Valley...again
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2003, 09:16:58 PM »
It is almost Master's Week. All Hail Augusta National!!!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Pine Valley...again
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2003, 08:03:24 AM »
redanman:

Shinnethingy at #6 seems about right to me.  Of course it depends on what the 5 above it are... for me 1 is rightfully placed, 2 has me also scratching my head... 3 and 4 better damn well be right next to each other, an hour's drive from my house or there's gonna be real head-scratching... in a perfect world 5 is in Mullen, NE... and 7 would have to be Shinnethingy's neighbor (of course I'd flip flop them).

I obviously don't rule the world.   ;)

As for 30 raters getting to Augusta, is 30 the rule?  I honestly have no idea.  That thought occurred to me also though... not that I really care how each magazine runs this, more that I was wondering where my invitation was!   ;D ;D ;D

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Pine Valley...again
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2003, 08:44:35 AM »
Tom Huckaby;

I haven't picked up the magazine, but I think the first 7 go like this;

1) Pine Valley
2) Augusta National
3) Cypress Point
4) Oakmont
5) Pebble Beach
6) Shinnecock
7) Merion

I am curious to hear how they explain ANGC's leap (must be that adding distance and rough is somehow good) and Pebble falling from the greatest course in the world to 5?!

Also, I understand that Pacific Dunes debuted in the 40's, while Bandon Dunes slid over 20 spots to 60s or 70s.  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley...again
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2003, 08:46:38 AM »
INSTANT MESSAGE TO ALL GREENS CHAIRMAN!!!!

Oakmont removed 1,400 trees and is now #4 (Ahead of Pebble Beach).  Cut your trees down!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

TEPaul

Re: Pine Valley...again
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2003, 08:49:13 AM »
It would now be a good time to reveal that following Pebble replacing PV as #1, some of the people who run Pebble came to play PV (none of them had ever been to PV before). Those men were overheard at PV saying things like;

"Our place certainly isn't this good".

PV is back on top--the East is dominant again and all is well in Denmark!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Pine Valley...again
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2003, 08:57:50 AM »
Mike - I can't find the magazine - it's not at our newstand yet and I sure haven't gotten it at home.... interesting.

As for that top 7, it looks pretty good to me.  My take is more the anti-GD faction is gonna have to stretch things mightily to give it to much crap.  Even Augusta at #2 is pretty hard to complain about.  Of course my beloved NGLA and SandHills are missing, but hey, Rome wasn't built in a day.

As for movement within the list, come on, you know how that goes.  The way GD does things, with even MORE criteria and MORE point values, the differences between courses can SO easily be effected, no movement is ever going to surprise me.  Movement on Golf Mag's list would be the most surprising, given the way they handle this (pure ranking rather than any numerical values).

I can live with the east being dominant here, hey, it's as things should be.  Just remember to talk me to come next January and tell me how great your courses are playing.   ;)

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Pine Valley...again
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2003, 08:58:14 AM »
David;

INSTANT MESSAGE TO ALL GREEN CHAIRMEN:

ANGC planted a whole bunch of trees, narrowed the fairways with Bermuda rough, and lengthened holes and moved up to #2.

Talk about mixed messages!! ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Pine Valley...again
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2003, 09:02:07 AM »
Mike has this right - I wouldn't go looking for messages too hard here.  Cypress did boatloads of renovations re several greens and many bunkers and it stayed #3 - does this mean change is worthless?

It's all in the numbers... movement happens on this list...

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley...again
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2003, 09:51:47 AM »
Cypress Point is not #2?
Pac Dunes is in the 40's?
Where's Sand Hills?

Hmm
Maybe I like the Golfweek list better
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

THuckaby2

Re: Pine Valley...again
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2003, 09:56:45 AM »
Mdugger - Brad Klein is very wise, no list is ever going to make everyone happy.

Obviously Augusta at #2 is strange, but hey, it's at least arguable.  As for all the rest, well... each list has its own gaffes, determined mainly by how they do the measuring (ie, what criteria they use).

Thus it seems wiser to accent the positive, re all the lists.  They are all taken way too seriously.

TH
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ForkaB

Re: Pine Valley...again
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2003, 10:06:45 AM »
Tom H

What's "strange" about ANGC being #2?  The more I think about it, in the context of what I've learned on this website, the better it gets.  If you want to do this "We're #13!" nitpicking exercise, I'd say that Augusta is just about where it should be, if not slightly underated.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Pine Valley...again
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2003, 10:40:30 AM »
Rich:

It's not strange to me, I just meant that I can understand if others find it strange, given how many people seem to really dislike the modern changes there, and how seriously some take what really are incredibly minor differences.  I have no problem with any this myself.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley...again
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2003, 10:54:33 AM »
Rich,

I can't wait to have beer with you in May this year and discuss architecture if you think that Augusta deserves to be at number 2 in the WHOLE of America...

Brian
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley...again
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2003, 11:00:54 AM »
Tom

Yeah, sure, not every list is going to please everyone.  I like what you said about the measurement criteria.  If Pac Dunes Cypress Point and Sand Hills are not in the top 15 or 20 courses then I suspect their measurement apparatus does not see eye to eye with my own.

But that's cool.  It's why we look at all of the rankings.  Personally, I'll stick with a Golf magazine/Doak ranking hybrid.....with a little GCA opinion sprinkled in for good measure.

Cheers  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Matt_Ward

Re: Pine Valley...again
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2003, 11:07:08 AM »
Let me just say this regarding GD's newest ratings -- if you want to see a cogent and detailed analysis of ANGC check out Brad Klein's commentary from the latest GW issue. Brad's take is 100% dead-on regarding how ANGC is CLEARLY NO LONGER the course it was intended to be. The very nature of ANGC has been turned on its head from a swash-buckling birdies & eagles v bogey and double-bogey to a matter-of-fact maintain your composure don't push the envelope type course. Brad goes into a very comprehensivre and thorough review of what Augusta HAD and what it's missing today. Well done stuff -- indeed!

Brad is also quite correct that ANGC would likely fall from the high stature it occupies provided there was some sort of real understanding of architecture. Clearly, the connection to the Masters and the aura it generates permits the course to stay in the high clouds.  Unfortunately, too many people must have fog blocking their ability to see through the hype of an event versus the character (or lack thereof) of the course in question. A pity indeed.

On other fronts ...

I say kudos to PV -- glad to see New Jersey's top course highlighted as it is. BUT, THE CONTINUED INJUSTICE DONE TO SHINNECOCK HILLS AMAZES ME. I guess I'll have to wait for another Open in '05 to once again wake up those "in the know" that this beauty from Southampton is still trailing a pack that I believe it should rightfully lead. At minimum SH should be among the nation's top three -- no question or doubt about it from my perspective. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ForkaB

Re: Pine Valley...again
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2003, 11:11:08 AM »
Brian

Unlike mdugger and others, I haven't played all of the potentially great courses (particularly Augusta), but from what I have seen on the telly over the past 40 years, ANGC is as good or better than some of the others of that ilk which I have played (e.g. Cypress, Pebble Beach, Merion, Shinnecock).  What's wrong with it?

Rich

PS--hope the weather in Dornoch in early May is as good has it has been this past week in Fife and Edinburgh!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley...again
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2003, 11:26:20 AM »
Mike:

To me there is no surprise that Golf Digest will make Pine Valley number one again.  They caught a lot of flack for knocking it down last time, and I think they realized the error of their ways.

However, to me at least, it's still:

There's Heaven,
There's Cypress Point,
and then
There's everything else!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG
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