Best course built since WWII by a non-professional architect?

[John_Cullum]

Ocean Forest.

Great answer

[Geoffrey Childs]

Ocean Forest.

Great answer

Stupid answer and one reason why so much that is written on here is frowned upon by people in the business.

I've played Ocean Forest and its quite an excellent golf course.  Of Rees' work I think I like only Olde Kinderhook better. The back nine in particular is quite good with the finishing holes dramatic and varied.  One could argue that Rees did not make the most of the property especially the existing dunes but the "non-professional architect" crack lacks all credibility.

John- how many Rees Jones courses have you played and which ones if I might ask?

[John_Cullum]

GC-
Ive played Ocean forest and Southbridge that I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others. But I'm happy for you that you have found an architect whose work you like.

[Geoffrey Childs]

So John -

Are you actually saying that he is a "Non-professional"?

Based on your great knowledge of the workings of professional architects just what other working architects might you also include in this "non-professional" category?

[Geoffrey Childs]

John

Perhaps you should ask Mr Huntley if Rees was a "non-professional" in the work he did at MPCC?  Are the members satisfied with the Dunes course?

Perhaps we should ask Scott Wood if he was "non-professional" building Olde Kinderhook and if the members are satisfied with his professionalism and the final product?

Perhaps some Ocean Forest members might comment if they are satisfied with their course and if Rees acted professionally during his work there?

Perhaps we should poll the patrons at Bethpage Black to see if they are satisfied with the state of the course after Rees worked there?

Your answer was a sad attempt at humor I'm sure but it doesn't add to the credibility of this site nor does it promote "professionals" from posting here.  

[John_Cullum]

As to your last paragraph, you presume that Rees jones is held in high esteem by his colleagues. For all you know, many of his colleagues would like to say what I said.

As to the balance, are you saying that polling the membership is a good method of evaluating the quality of the work on a macro scale. I never thought that membership approval was very highly regarded by most of the participants around here.

What do the members think of Rulewich's work at Yale? They do have members, don't they?

[John_Cullum]

Also geoff, it wasn't my attempt at humor, it was Clark's. I am just enjoying it.

[Geoffrey Childs]

John - you implied that Rees Jones was a "non-professional" golf course architect  

That you could still reply once again to that effect and try to misdirect to other golf course architects that no one ever called "non-professional" goes to your credibility or lack thereof.

The memberships are fully capable of deciding on the professionalism of those they hire.  Are you saying that Bob Huntley and Scott Wood do not have reasonable experience enough to decide if Rees Jones is a "professional golf course architect"?  

Give it up already.

[John_Cullum]

GC

All I implied was that I liked Clark's post.

You have chosen to speak for all of the professional architects who don't participate here, and blame their non-participation on me. I find that a stretch, even for you. Since you have chosen to engage me in this debate, I have chosen to point out you may be wrong in your assumptions.

[Geoffrey Childs]

I might be wrong about many things but implying Rees Jones is not a professional architect and reiterating and backing up that statement is not one of them.

I do not speak for any architects and I'm sure that there are a multitude of reasons any of them choose not to participate here but stupid thoughtless comments about professionalism might well be one of those reasons.  You might prefer to read comments from idiots like Kavanaugh but I would prefer to learn from more "professionals" in the business and would hope the participants would conduct themselves in a manner that would promote their participation.

[John_Cullum]

So how does your epistle on "the Tragedy at Yale" help in your quest?

[John_Cullum]

By the way, does anybody know who Clark was?

[Geoffrey Childs]

Who ever called Roger Rulewich a "non-professional" architect?

What does preference for another style of golf course architecture or non liking the dumbing down of features in a supposed restoration have to do with this thread?  

You apparently just don't understand what your words mean and I am done trying to point that out.  

[John_Cullum]

I know exactly what my two words meant.

You have taken and extrapolated those two words into my being the reason professional architects don't participate. I am merely pointing out that some non-architect who undertakes to write a scathing piece on a noteworthy architectural project does far more to drive the professionals away than my .02.

[Geoffrey Childs]

You apparently still stand by your statement that Rees Jones is a "non-professional" architect.  Based on playing two of his courses.

My statement about participation by professionals was only a minor biproduct of the original premise.

If you truly believe that your statement suggesting Rees Jones is a "non-professional" golf course architect is a more worthy contribution to this site then my documentation of the changes to the Yale golf course during its "restoration" then perhaps we have the successor to Kavanaugh and his lunacy on this site.

Your .02 is worthless.

[John_Cullum]

Stupid answer and one reason why so much that is written on here is frowned upon by people in the business.

Minor biproduct?

I would say  my.02 is worth about that. I have never held it out as anything more.

Now I really have to go. I have some things to attend to outside of GCA, but I'll check in later to see if this is still going on.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Yes John - It was a stupid answer and posts like that are likely to be ONE reason professionals don't post here.  Not the reason or maybe not even the most prevelant reason but likely one reason.

You still defend it and can't just seem to say that you've played two of his courses and from that resume of his work don't like his style of golf course architecture but be builts courses that are professionallly constructed and that many people like.

For a "non-professional" he seems to get lots of high profile work.

[George Pazin]

Getting back to Ran's topic, is there a Crump/Fownes out there today? Someone who is actually designing his own course?

From what I've read, Archie Struthers seems closest.

I'm not a fan of the course, but I think Wolf Creek - the death defying high wire north of Vegas - was designed and built by the owner.

Who out there would try it if they had the land? Or would you simply hire someone?

Me, I'm an idiot, I'd have to at least try it myself before I turned it over to someone who knew what he was doing.

How do you think I got stuck printing t shirts with my math degree?

[Jason Topp]

George:

In my view, Wolf Creek is a great example of why not to do it.

I'd love to try, but would want a professional involved to make sure I didn't screw it up.  Anyone heard of such an arrangement?  Sort of the opposite of a player consultant.  Instead, an architect consultant.

[Mike Hendren]

The Golf Club  at Stonelick Hills (Greater Cincinnati):

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2005/05/16/story3.html?page=1

[Geoffrey Childs]

Twisted Dune is a good course.  I don't know if Archie had any help with it.

George- Go and play Running Dear in New Jersey.  That truly was done by a "non-professional" and it shows.  I applaud some of the bold features but they are not tied into the strategies and that course is an example of an owner who could have made good use of a professionally trained architect to incorporate his ideas.

[Keith Williams]

I don't know if he qualifies as a non-professional since he builds golf courses, but see my post about Windswept Dunes, a great new course by first-time designer Doug O'Rourke.  It might not necessarily be the best, but I am pretty sure it deserves consideration.

Keith.

[mike_malone]

I agree with Sweeney on Twisted Dune.   In Delaware, Back Creek is noteworthy for variety, strategy, and imaginative green complexes.

[Lester George]

Gents,

It may be popular to criticize Rees' work here and it's definitely okay to not like his work, that everyones prerogative.  

To imply that he is a "non-professional" is absurd.  Just think of the body of evidence he can present, the amount of politics he deals with, the conditions under which he has worked, not to metion the scrutiny.  

This is the kind of conversation that drives down the credibility of this site.  Let's all think about it and tighten up a little.

Original thread is interesting.  

Lester George

[Norbert P]

The "Mad Russian Golf Course" in Colorado that was designed by a mad Russian.

 Can I get a hallelujah!?  

 Nyet?