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Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #75 on: November 24, 2007, 11:30:14 AM »
Corey,

I never understood how anyone could claim that # 2 was unnatural looking.

There's a par 3 at Lehigh, probably the 7th, where the golfer tees off from a high tee to a much lower green fronted by a pond. ;D

TEPaul

Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #76 on: November 24, 2007, 11:32:50 AM »
Wayne:

See that post #73 in which Patrick is responding to you?

You know the old adage "Two ships passing in the night"?

Well, that's what Patrick is in that post---a ship passing in the night. If you have no earthly idea he's even there I can't say I blame you.  ;)

And Wayne, just back off on this contention of yours that Macd/Raynor architecture is artificial looking. You're never going to get anywhere with these guys trying to make your point. I mean seriously, here we have two greens and surrounding bunkers at Sleepy Hollow trying to act like two  gigantic green custards in two huge plates of milk and these guys are still trying to tell you they look like raw and random natural earth forms.

I guess they could claim that a gigantic green custard in a humongous plate of milk is somehow natural looking but that's about the extent of it.  ;)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2007, 11:43:41 AM by TEPaul »

wsmorrison

Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #77 on: November 24, 2007, 11:35:07 AM »
Tom,

One of the ships is passing, the other is sinking.  ;)
Unfortunately, I have an idea what he is saying and that's the scarier part.

TEPaul

Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #78 on: November 24, 2007, 11:55:17 AM »
"Unfortunately, I have an idea what he is saying and that's the scarier part."

I wouldn't go that far if I were you, Wayno.

The scary, scarier and scariest part of all is Patrick actually thinks he has some idea about what he's saying.

Pat's a friend of mine and I have real sympathy for someone like that who thinks a couple of greens and surrounds that look exactly like gigantic green custards in humongous plates of milk look like naturally occuring land formations.

You gotta understand, Pat must've had a sort of odd childhood. That can result in what's called "Transference"----eg you think golf greens and surrounds that look like gigantic custards in humongous plates of milk look like naturally occuring landforms.

But that's not even the greatest of Pat's problems with "Transference". He also sometimes thinks some of NGLA's greens look like a beautiful woman.

One of these days Pat just might get caught trying to actually make love to the first green at NGLA and then he really is gonna be in some seriously deep DoDo.

wsmorrison

Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #79 on: November 24, 2007, 12:08:16 PM »
I had a wonderful response to Pat.  It might have even helped him.  Then I get this gawdawful message that my reply was too long and it was lost.  

If Pat's making love to the greens at NGLA, I hope the club has one of those practice hole makers...you know the one where the hole is only slightly bigger than the ball  ;D
« Last Edit: November 24, 2007, 12:09:44 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #80 on: November 24, 2007, 12:52:15 PM »
"I had a wonderful response to Pat.  Then I get this gawdawful message that my reply was too long and it was lost."

Even the website's program is getting a headache from Wayne's responses...

wsmorrison

Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #81 on: November 24, 2007, 12:57:16 PM »
"Since when does "style" need to evolve ?

One's artistic/architectural "style" is what makes their courses unique.  Why should there be a need to change it ?"

Artists evolve, engineers repeat.  What artist limited himself to the same narrowly constrained output all the time?  That isa more in the mode of a craftsman, not an artist.  I will grant you that Raynor and Banks were craftsmen.  Here's where Tom MacWood's argument might have some merit  ;)

"A deviation from that style might result in a devolution of the product."

It might devolve if the talent wasn't up to speed.  It also might just evolve into something better if given a chance.  They didn't give it a chance.  I don't infer that they didn't have talent to do something different.  I simply recognize that they did not evolve.  That's open to interpretation.

"Wayne, that's sheer nonsense.
The aesthetics at Westhampton, The Knoll, The Creek, Piping Rock, Yale, NGLA and others are terrific, if not spectacular.
How can you posture that any of those courses are lacking in aesthetics ?  It's simply NOT TRUE."

I never said that there was a lack of aesthetics.  That was the conclusion you jumped to.  I merely said that it was an aesthetic that I do not appreciate as much as other architects.  There is a lack of variety and naturalism.  The majority of the examples you cite are where Macdonald was in complete control or worked with Raynor (Creek, Piping Rock, Yale and NGLA).  I've stated in the past that Macdonald's talent exceeded that of Raynor and Banks.

"The holes and more importantly, the subject of this thread, the routings, work marvelously, with NO internal flaws, such as crossovers.

You may or may not remember all of the criticism that Atlantic took with respect to the crossovers.  Poster after poster was commenting that crossovers were an indication of a flawed routing.  If crossovers are deemed by the cognoscenti to be a routing flaw, especially multiple crossovers, then the object of that criticism, as it related to Atlantic, must be applied to Flynn's work at Lehigh and others.

His crossovers must be considered a routing flaw.
The Cognoscenti have spoken and we must listen."

If the Cognoscenti have spoken then they are an ass and are not to be listened to (forgive my literary license).  First of all, the crossovers you mention of Flynn and Wilson that are FLAWS are not crossovers in the line of play.  You walk past one tee to get to another.  In two cases downhill and in one case slightly uphill.  The members know how to deal with these crossovers and there is such little imposition that it is not worth considering unless you are grasping at straws.  

What you fail to reflect is the improvement one gets in creating these tee crossovers.  Without the 13 green to 14 tee crossover on such a narrow site as Merion East, you couldn't have a course.  Would you scrap the course as is and move elsewhere?  Heck, even your illustrious pair of Macdonald and Whigham liked the site.  Some would argue that they were instrumental in the design or routing.  They are wrong, but let them have their flights of fancy.  Without the 2 green to 3 tee crossover, you wouldn't have the three act play and you'd have an even more awkward crossover with its steep climb from 3 green to 8 tee and the possible impact on tee shots on the 4th hole.

Without the  crossover from 2 green behind 18 tee and 17 green at Lehigh you wouldn't have that wonderful outside-inside routing with the interesting way the wind effects play, something I know you appreciate.  If you really thought about it, instead of being critical, you'd see the merits of the crossovers.  They are brilliant solutions achieving outstanding improvements on the routing progression at Lehigh and enabled a great course to be built at Merion.  Perhaps Raynor would have looked at the land and passed since he was so narrowly defined by the convention of another and lacked the artistic ability to see out-of-the-box solutions.
;)

"Would you identify the highly engineered "look" at Westhampton?  I'd like to know where to find it."

Cheese and Crackers, Pat.  All you have to do is start with the second hole with the uniformly level circular berm all around the green.  Or did a meteor land on that spot and naturally created the feature?  If so, I give Raynor credit for realizing that natural feature merited a green inside the crater rim.  



How about the Biarritz?  Is that linear swale au naturel as well?


"You've described SR's work as having a highly engineered "look", yet, the look you allude to doesn't exist in the golfer's eye.
It's your way of predisposing an opinion."

So you won't answer my question about how Raynor (who was initially awarded the commission) would have differed in his approach to Cypress Point?  I'm not surprised.  Do you think his linear bunkers with their flat bottoms, geometric green shapes and perched features would have looked as good as MacKenzie's natural style?  I certainly don't think so and I believe you don't either, which is why you objected to answer my leading question.

What would Fisher's Island look like if it was completed?  It looks more natural because he wasn't finished with it, all but one fairway bunker was never implemented.


"I'd also like you to tell me how Flynn would have designed and routed Lido, Yale and NGLA.  To state that he'd use the natural resources, ala Dr Mac at CPC would be a foolish response."

I'd be happy to, especially if it helps you to understand why my question about Cypress Point wasn't foolish.  He'd use the natural resources, ala Dr Mac at CPC ;D

Lido-consider Indian Creek, just as much an engineering feet.  Indian Creek was built with fill from the Bay to a perfectly level height of 3'.  Every contour and elevation above that, up to 35' in height was directed by Flynn.  Almost no one can tell that it was man-made.

Yale-consider Cascades, a more difficult golf course to build--by far.  Streams had to be moved, including one that emptied a 25 square mile area of mountains.  300 yard ridges were removed, fairway areas were raised and drainage considered on the low valley area between large mountains.  Yet it looks like the golf course was laid on the ground and not the ground laid around the golf course, even as great as Yale is.

NGLA-consider Shinnecock Hills. Much more in harmony with the surrounds even if the 7th green pops out above ground.  Suppose the membership loved a Redan feature and implored Flynn to design one.  He certainly would not have kept the original Redan, it would've stuck out like a sore thumb.  The relatively primitive bunker style would have been a dead giveaway.  Flynn designed other Redan-like greens at Huntingdon Valley and Philadelphia Country.  These, like the one at SHGC had abrupt rises to the green with narrow openings.  These were aerial approach holes and not ground/aerial option designs.  I never said everything Flynn did was natural and I never said everything Raynor did was unnatural.  Just because we are not dealing in absolutes doesn't mean there isn't a point to be made.


"What's so spectacular about the sites above the Hudson?"

Are you serious, Pat.  Take a glance at the overlook and one can only come to the conclusion that it is among the prettiest views in America.  If this is the sort of counterargument you have, you aren't well armed for this fight.  ;)

"Wayne, the next time you're at Shinnecock, don't skip # 7.

If you think that hole is more in harmony with the surrounds than Raynor's and Bank's work you're deluding yourself.

The same can be said of # 17 and many other holes.
You're blind to Flynn's artificial work but have 20-20 vision when it comes to the same work by SR and CB."

I already addressed your point about #7.  As for the 17th, how was/is that so artificial looking?  The bunkering?  Yeah, they could have been straight lines with perfectly flat bottoms.  That would have tied in better to the surrounds.



 
"How does Morris County have a "severe" style ?
Essex County ?
The Knoll ?
Westhampton ?
Piping Rock ?
The Creek ?
Fisher's Island ?
CC of Fairfield ?"

Sorry, Pat.  If you don't know by now, I cannot help you.

"Most appreciate Flynn's work, but, don't try to differentiate it from CBM-SR-CB by demeaning their style and work."

It is differentiated whether you accept the fact or not.  I am being critical of the style of Raynor and Banks, much less so of Macdonald.  Their style is different and radically so.  It is the most identifiable style of any architect and is site independent for the most part.  If that is demeaning, so be it.  I don't think so.  Despite other protests, I think it is a fascinating subject and worthy of discussion.  They built terrific golf courses.  To most it is all encompassing.  To me, it is limited to playability and shot interest.  
« Last Edit: November 24, 2007, 06:23:58 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #82 on: November 24, 2007, 01:01:25 PM »
 Bill,

"Frankly, I don't want to discuss this with you any longer either. This will be my last effort on this thread."


You lie, you lie, you lie.! ;D ;D ;D

wsmorrison

Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #83 on: November 24, 2007, 01:03:41 PM »
Bill,

Guilty as charged.  Pat made me do it, that's my only defense  ;D 8) ;D

john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #84 on: November 24, 2007, 09:00:54 PM »
1)  If engineering or engineers didn't evolve, artists would still be riding horses.

2)  Crossovers are not a problem or a flaw in the routing unless you can come up with something better.  You certainly can't for a course where you cross by a bar getting to the next tee.

Nevertheless,  I have fun playing most or all of the Raynors I've had the opportunity to see.   So what if they are engineered or look engineered.  For the most part, I only notice the engineering after playing the hole.

Whereas on some of the artists work,  I look forward from the tee and see 'oh' another bunker framing my view of the natural surroundings.  

How you can look at any parkland course in the US anyway and not think bunkers are engineered, or  perhaps etched by the  'ar tist,'  is beyond me.    Even artists gouge par 3s in the side of the hills.

Now even more rambling,. Having said all that baloney, if you only played Raynor exclusively all your life,  I think you would be missing quite a bit.

But another conflicting thought that doesn't make sense, I have never wanted to walk off a Raynor course.  Never.  Whereas at some of the artists' courses,  I think why is this crap being repeated ?

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #85 on: November 25, 2007, 12:02:11 PM »
John Stiles,

The principles of engineering haven't changed in a million years.

TEPaul, just because all Collies are dogs, doesn't make all dogs Collies.

The "short" green is inherently a man made structure, just like the 7th at Shinnecock.  I know that Wayne likes to try to camoflage that look by posting old, grainy, black and white photos, but, for those who are familiar with it, it's as engineered as almost anything Raynor built.

I'd appreciate it if you could identify the engineered "look" on # 2, # 4, # 5, # 6, # 8, # 10, # 12, # 13, # 16, # 17 and # 18 at Westhampton.

We'll get to other courses later.

wsmorrison

Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #86 on: November 25, 2007, 12:08:58 PM »
Pat,

That B&W is the 17th at Shinnecock, not the 7th.  I posted a photo of the 2nd at Westhampton.  Do you maintain that it is natural in appearance and not engineered looking?  If so, we need to use the same dictionary.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #87 on: November 25, 2007, 07:52:07 PM »


I posted a photo of the 2nd at Westhampton.  Do you maintain that it is natural in appearance and not engineered looking?  If so, we need to use the same dictionary.


Wayne,

You need to look in the dictionary under the word "sequence".

You did NOT post a picture of the 2nd hole at Westhampton.

As to your picture of # 17 at SH, that's a nice head on shot, but, the profile that's revealed as the golfer walks to the green presents an entirely different perspective, one where the word, "engineered" comes to mind.
[/color]

wsmorrison

Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #88 on: November 25, 2007, 08:37:07 PM »
Sorry, Pat.  You're right, it was the third hole at Westhampton that I posted.  Wow, it is still very manufactured looking!  Imagine that.  That my friend is one ugly but fun hole.  Nobody but Raynor or Banks would do anything that looks like that.  It is as unnatural as a hole can get.  

The 7th at Shinnecock (I'm glad you disagree with George Bahto and understand that it is entirely a Flynn hole) looks like Mother Nature built it by comparison.  ;)

Now let me go back and watch the Eagles lose 54 to 3.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2007, 08:37:34 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #89 on: November 25, 2007, 08:44:33 PM »
quote author=Wayne Morrison link=board=1;threadid=8456;start=70#msg633045 date=1195927036]
"Since when does "style" need to evolve ?

One's artistic/architectural "style" is what makes their courses unique.  Why should there be a need to change it ?"

Artists evolve, engineers repeat.  What artist limited himself to the same narrowly constrained output all the time?


That's absurd.
If an artist changes his style, he loses his style and his work becomes unrecognizable.

Should Dali have "evolved" his unique style to the point where the work couldn't be identified as being authored by him ?
[/color]

That is a more in the mode of a craftsman, not an artist.  I will grant you that Raynor and Banks were craftsmen.  Here's where Tom MacWood's argument might have some merit  ;)


"A deviation from that style might result in a devolution of the product."

It might devolve if the talent wasn't up to speed.  It also might just evolve into something better if given a chance.  They didn't give it a chance.  I don't infer that they didn't have talent to do something different.  I simply recognize that they did not evolve.  That's open to interpretation.


How did Flynn's style "evolve" ?
Or, did it remain static ?
Ross ?  AWT ?  Dr Mac ?
Where was the evolution, the movement away from their original work to work that bore little resemblance to their
early work ?  
[/color]

"Wayne, that's sheer nonsense.
The aesthetics at Westhampton, The Knoll, The Creek, Piping Rock, Yale, NGLA and others are terrific, if not spectacular.
How can you posture that any of those courses are lacking in aesthetics ?  It's simply NOT TRUE."

I never said that there was a lack of aesthetics.  That was the conclusion you jumped to.  I merely said that it was an aesthetic that I do not appreciate as much as other architects. [size=4x] There is a lack of variety and naturalism. [/size]

Where is there a lack of naturalism at Morris County, Essex County, Westhampton or The Knoll ?


The majority of the examples you cite are where Macdonald was in complete control or worked with Raynor (Creek, Piping Rock, Yale and NGLA).  I've stated in the past that Macdonald's talent exceeded that of Raynor and Banks.


"The holes and more importantly, the subject of this thread, the routings, work marvelously, with NO internal flaws, such as crossovers.

You may or may not remember all of the criticism that Atlantic took with respect to the crossovers.  Poster after poster was commenting that crossovers were an indication of a flawed routing.  If crossovers are deemed by the cognoscenti to be a routing flaw, especially multiple crossovers, then the object of that criticism, as it related to Atlantic, must be applied to Flynn's work at Lehigh and others.

His crossovers must be considered a routing flaw.
The Cognoscenti have spoken and we must listen."

If the Cognoscenti have spoken then they are an ass and are not to be listened to (forgive my literary license).  First of all, the crossovers you mention of Flynn and Wilson that are FLAWS are not crossovers in the line of play.  You walk past one tee to get to another.  In two cases downhill and in one case slightly uphill.  The members know how to deal with these crossovers and there is such little imposition that it is not worth considering unless you are grasping at straws.  


I know what a crossover is and your defensive response is pure boloney, or bologna if you prefer


What you fail to reflect is the improvement one gets in creating these tee crossovers.  Without the 13 green to 14 tee crossover on such a narrow site as Merion East, you couldn't have a course.  Would you scrap the course as is and move elsewhere?  Heck, even your illustrious pair of Macdonald and Whigham liked the site.  Some would argue that they were instrumental in the design or routing.  They are wrong, but let them have their flights of fancy.  Without the 2 green to 3 tee crossover, you wouldn't have the three act play and you'd have an even more awkward crossover with its steep climb from 3 green to 8 tee and the possible impact on tee shots on the 4th hole.

That's only in your limited understanding of the routing.
It totally disregards what they may have come up with, not unlike what Ross and Flynn did with the exact same piece of property at York.


Patrick_Mucci

Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #90 on: November 25, 2007, 08:46:15 PM »
Nice way to duck the question.
What NATURAL features at LIDO ?  
What NATURAL features at YALE ?[/color]
Without the  crossover from 2 green behind 18 tee and 17 green at Lehigh you wouldn't have that wonderful outside-inside routing with the interesting way the wind effects play, something I know you appreciate.  If you really thought about it, instead of being critical, you'd see the merits of the crossovers.  They are brilliant solutions achieving outstanding improvements on the routing progression at Lehigh and enabled a great course to be built at Merion.  Perhaps Raynor would have looked at the land and passed since he was so narrowly defined by the convention of another and lacked the artistic ability to see out-of-the-box solutions.[/b] ;)


Again, your perspective is limited and biased.
Raynor may have come up with a superior routing, one that didn't entail crossovers.

You call them brilliant solutions.
But, they weren't.
Flynn painted himself into that corner vis a vis his own hand because he couldn't come up with a better routing, something that perhaps SR and CB could.


"Would you identify the highly engineered "look" at Westhampton?  I'd like to know where to find it."

Cheese and Crackers, Pat.  All you have to do is start with the second hole with the uniformly level circular berm all around the green.  Or did a meteor land on that spot and naturally created the feature?  If so, I give Raynor credit for realizing that natural feature merited a green inside the crater rim.

The 2nd hole green is FLUSH with the fronting fairway.
There is NOTHING artificial about it.
 



That's not the 2nd hole at Westhampton.


How about the Biarritz?  Is that linear swale au naturel as well?

It is nowhere near as manufactured as the 7th at Shinnecock.


"You've described SR's work as having a highly engineered "look", yet, the look you allude to doesn't exist in the golfer's eye.
It's your way of predisposing an opinion."

So you won't answer my question about how Raynor (who was initially awarded the commission) would have differed in his approach to Cypress Point?  I'm not surprised.  Do you think his linear bunkers with their flat bottoms, geometric green shapes and perched features would have looked as good as MacKenzie's natural style?  I certainly don't think so and I believe you don't either, which is why you objected to answer my leading question.

That's not why I objected to your question.

I objected to it because you have absolutely NO CONTEXT in which to judge the answer.

You don't know what Raynor would have done at CPC, and neither do I.

Anything you say is PURE CONJECTURE, ABSENT THE FACTS.


What would Fisher's Island look like if it was completed?  It looks more natural because he wasn't finished with it, all but one fairway bunker was never implemented.

Again, how can you claim to know what it would have looked like ?  You can't.


"I'd also like you to tell me how Flynn would have designed and routed Lido, Yale and NGLA.  To state that he'd use the natural resources, ala Dr Mac at CPC would be a foolish response."

I'd be happy to, especially if it helps you to understand why my question about Cypress Point wasn't foolish.  He'd use the natural resources, ala Dr Mac at CPC ;D


Patrick_Mucci

Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #91 on: November 25, 2007, 08:47:13 PM »
Lido-consider Indian Creek, just as much an engineering feet.  Indian Creek was built with fill from the Bay to a perfectly level height of 3'.  Every contour and elevation above that, up to 35' in height was directed by Flynn.  Almost no one can tell that it was man-made.

Noone can tell that "WHAT" was man made.
The island or the golf course, or both ?

How can you equate 1930 construction to 1917 construction ?

Perhaps that blind idiot-savant who lives nearby and relies on his guide dog, Coorshaw, couldn't tell, but, you can't be naive enough to think that everyone else feels it's a natural phenomenon.
 

Yale-consider Cascades, a more difficult golf course to build--by far.  Streams had to be moved, including one that emptied a 25 square mile area of mountains.  300 yard ridges were removed, fairway areas were raised and drainage considered on the low valley area between large mountains.  Yet it looks like the golf course was laid on the ground and not the ground laid around the golf course, even as great as Yale is.

Wayne, surely, even you in your zest to glorify Flynn wouldn't compare the solid rock SR encountered at Yale, a completely hostile site, with the soil at Cascades


NGLA-consider Shinnecock Hills. Much more in harmony with the surrounds even if the 7th green pops out above ground.  Suppose the membership loved a Redan feature and implored Flynn to design one.  He certainly would not have kept the original Redan, it would've stuck out like a sore thumb.  The relatively primitive bunker style would have been a dead giveaway.  Flynn designed other Redan-like greens at Huntingdon Valley and Philadelphia Country.  These, like the one at SHGC had abrupt rises to the green with narrow openings.  These were aerial approach holes and not ground/aerial option designs.  I never said everything Flynn did was natural and I never said everything Raynor did was unnatural.  Just because we are not dealing in absolutes doesn't mean there isn't a point to be made.

Would that point include the introducton of Toomey, an engineer, the man responsible for construction, and Flynn's partner

Flynn's work at Shinnecock came 20 years after CBM's work at NGLA.  CBM's work was revolutionary.

Flynn was a "Johnny come lately" in terms of time frames and architecture on the East End.
[/b]

"What's so spectacular about the sites above the Hudson?"

Are you serious, Pat.  Take a glance at the overlook and one can only come to the conclusion that it is among the prettiest views in America.  If this is the sort of counterargument you have, you aren't well armed for this fight.

Wayne, That's ONE hole, I repeat, ONE hole that sits at the crest of the ridge.  What about the rest of the property ?

Tell me about the views of the Hudson on # 1 thru # 15, # 17 and # 18.  In most cases, they're NON-EXISTANT, something you've conveniently overlooked.


"Wayne, the next time you're at Shinnecock, don't skip # 7.

If you think that hole is more in harmony with the surrounds than Raynor's and Bank's work you're deluding yourself.

The same can be said of # 17 and many other holes.
You're blind to Flynn's artificial work but have 20-20 vision when it comes to the same work by SR and CB."

I already addressed your point about #7.  As for the 17th, how was/is that so artificial looking?  The bunkering?  Yeah, they could have been straight lines with perfectly flat bottoms.  That would have tied in better to the surrounds.



The head on shot is nice, the view from the profile angles shows an engineered product, just like some of the greens at NGLA.
[/color]

"How does Morris County have a "severe" style ?
Essex County ?
The Knoll ?
Westhampton ?
Piping Rock ?
The Creek ?
Fisher's Island ?
CC of Fairfield ?"

Sorry, Pat.  If you don't know by now, I cannot help you.

I know what looks engineered and what doesn't look engineered, and I know when one has predisposed views that won't allow him to give the devil his due.


"Most appreciate Flynn's work, but, don't try to differentiate it from CBM-SR-CB by demeaning their style and work."

It is differentiated whether you accept the fact or not.  I am being critical of the style of Raynor and Banks, much less so of Macdonald.  Their style is different and radically so.  


That's what makes it so unique


It is the most identifiable style of any architect and is site independent for the most part.  

That's a tribute to their talent and the incredible demand for their product.

Imitation is THE sincerest form of flattery, and that's what the golf world wanted from them.  Somehow, you fail to recognize and acknowledge that.


If that is demeaning, so be it.  I don't think so.  Despite other protests, I think it is a fascinating subject and worthy of discussion.  They built terrific golf courses.  To most it is all encompassing.  To me, it is limited to playability and shot interest.

Limited to playability and shot interest ?   ?  ?

Isn't that the core of the game ?
 
Quote

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #92 on: November 25, 2007, 09:16:38 PM »
Pat asked me to post this to add to this completely interesting dialog from both sides. Bravo Gentleman! Finally a Golf Club Atlas thread which we can all sink our teeth into!

Pat, since you brought up Westhampton, I'm including the Short hole there.


And of course, Shinneythingy:


Since we are bringing Long Island into this (As we should)

Nature as it was meant to be on a Golf Course:




I'll take them both anytime! Engineered or unengineered!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #93 on: November 26, 2007, 04:58:42 AM »
quote author=Wayne Morrison link=board=1;threadid=8456;start=70#msg633045 date=1195927036]
"Since when does "style" need to evolve ?

One's artistic/architectural "style" is what makes their courses unique.  Why should there be a need to change it ?"

Artists evolve, engineers repeat.  What artist limited himself to the same narrowly constrained output all the time?


That's absurd.
If an artist changes his style, he loses his style and his work becomes unrecognizable.

Pat

I spose it would be quite an experiment if the Beatles kept releasing versions of their first few albums.  They would certainly be recognizable - do you think moreso than now?

It would be quite strange to think that Picasso never went through his Blue, Rose, African and Cubism periods (not to mention anything about sculpture).  Do you spose people think less of Picasso because his style of art changed over some 70 odd years of work?  Is his work still recognizable for all that?  

Bottom line is that you are barking up the wrong tree here Patrick.  It may well be the case that artists go out of their way to evolve - perhaps at the risk of losing recognizability.  It may not seem so to the likes of me at times, but I am sure most artists will say their work has changed over time.  

I don't know how anyone could say that the Raynor-Banks style isn't rather stiff looking compared to other highly successful archies, but to each is own.  I don't care for the look, but if it plays well and the members are happy, that is the most important thing.  Given that all courses are artificial, some courses are less artificial looking because of the archie's skill in fitting a course into the land.  Wayne prefers this more natural look.  Is this not all that Wayne is saying?  

Ciao

« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 04:59:31 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

TEPaul

Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #94 on: November 26, 2007, 08:37:48 AM »
Wayne:

As usual Patrick has missed your point. It's not about what's manufactured and what isn't, it's about what really looks manufactured and what doesn't.

wsmorrison

Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #95 on: November 26, 2007, 09:04:27 AM »
Thanks, Sean.  You summed this up nicely.

Tom,

Man, did he ever miss the point!

wsmorrison

Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #96 on: November 26, 2007, 09:05:10 AM »
In Pat's case, a picture is better than 10,000 words.  Here are some photographs that demonstrates that Raynor did not attempt to hide the hand of man to any extent whatsoever.  While he did use natural features at times, he clearly showed a tendency to manufacture and leave the manufactured look to a greater degree than anyone else.  How else can Pat explain the fact that Raynor is the easiest classic era architect to identify?  His style was very limited and the use of templates make it so easy to determine for anyone, no matter how new they are to the study of golf architecture.




















« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 09:08:55 AM by Wayne Morrison »

wsmorrison

Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #97 on: November 26, 2007, 09:05:36 AM »




















wsmorrison

Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #98 on: November 26, 2007, 09:05:57 AM »












TEPaul

Re:Seth Raynor's most \
« Reply #99 on: November 26, 2007, 09:26:46 AM »
Wayne:

Maybe a guy like Patrick (and some others) just don't think those holes you presented above LOOK manufactured or maybe he doesn't think they look more manufactured than most Flynn holes or Mackenzie holes or whatever. If that's the case I see no real reason to carry on this discussion with him, because if that's the case he never will understand your point.

Even if he somehow comes to understand your point the chances of him conceding you your point are also probably nil.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 09:29:11 AM by TEPaul »

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