Holy Grails of Golf

[ed_getka]

I'm still thinking about my list, but I did postpone my brother's 40th birthday suprise (Crystal Downs and Kingsley Club) when I received an invite to Sand Hills.

There is no course I would travel to that would interfere with what is going on with my children, but once I have them covered the list is:

Pine Valley
Prairie Dunes
Myopia
Seminole
and one international, Rye.

[THuckaby2]

Ed:

I know we got sidetracked a bit in my discussion with Des, but the idea was to keep this to the US, just so that it had some sense of reality.  Or do you seriously mean that if you got an invite to Rye you'd drop everything and go immediately, the time and expense be damned?  Please clarify if so.

You also would not include Augusta or Cypress?

Re Sand Hills, well said.  Believe me I had to rearrange a lot to go there myself and I am STILL paying for it.  But it was so worth it it's not even worth thinking about.

Interesting also, my basic assumption is that the kids come first.  Remember I missed the "practice round" at Neal's course before Barona last year so I could watch my son sing in a school pageant...  Obviously no golf comes before stuff like that.

I don't mean to pick on you - how people feel about this stuff is really interesting to me.  So please do clarify, if you care to.

TH

[David Wigler]

Tom,

You were dead on that access is just a part of it.  Double Eagle and TGC are two of the most exclusive courses in the country.  They are also phenomenal golf courses (Regardless of what some silly magazine thinks   ).  That written, I would not drop my life to play a round at either of them.  I agree with you completely about international courses as well.  Ironically, when I though international, the two that immediately came to my mind were Valderrama and Royal Melbourne.  After some thought, I eliminated Valderama.  I wish I could say courses in England, Scotland, and Ireland but it would be disingenuous.  I have turned down golf trips to all three places in the past for various reasons.

[RJ_Daley]

I haven't been to many of the courses I think of as Holy Grails, except for SH and Crystal Downs, that require an entree or invite.  I have been to a few public ones that I considered among the seminal works to be seen and experienced.  But, access to the greatest private ones is generally just a hope and a prayer thing that may or may not happen.  Among those remaining for me, I'd consider Royal Melbourne, Pine Valley, Cypress, NGLA, and Shinny, perhap I am leaving one or two out if I thought about it.  But, not ANGC.  

Of those that are on my holy grail list not because of access, but because they are difficult to get to by virtue of expense and difficulty of geography, it comes down to an opportuity to go to Ireland and/or Scotland on a tour of courses that have the real spirit with true golf buddies and those who are of kindred souls.  In that case, the company of golfer friends would be and integral part of the crusade to find the holy grail.  

[corey miller]

I learned my "holy grail" lesson in my last job when I told my supervisor "I just got an invite to play____ tomorrow".

When I returned to work the day after he asked me what happened and where I was and why I was absent.  I of course said "I told you I got invited to ____, what did you think I wasn't going?"

Non golfers just do not understand the language:

I got invited to ____  =  I am going.

[ian]

I always thought that the holy grail was concidered Augusta, Pine Valley, Cypress Point and Seminole, and that it had more to do with access.

Once you have played them, would you still drop everything to go there again, or would you concentrate on the next four?
I have played three and will likely pass on two offers to play again. A'm I normal or nuts? Would you, or would you go no matter what?

Ian

[Michael Dugger]

Casa de Campo

Can anyone who has visited confirm or deny that it is a tremendous golf course?  

[Jeff Goldman]

Doesn't the answer to this question depend at least somewhat on what kind of access you have now?  Since I've seen a fair amount of Pete Dye's courses, dropping everything to see his "best" doesn't seem that exciting.  Otherwise, I have no access, so not only would I drop everything to play the oft-mentioned Shinney, NGLA, Merion, PV, Cypress PT, Chicago, Crystal Downs, etc., but also for courses with slightly less "mystique" like SFGC, Prairie Dunes, Fenway, and a host of others.  When you haven't seen much, you're more willing.  Christ, with the weather crummy in Chicago, I'm thinking of doing a road trip tomorrow to French Lick.  

Jeff Goldman

[Brad Swanson]

Ian,
   I think you make a great point that might almost qualify as a distinction between a "holy grail" and a "notch in the belt", that being maintenance of desire to play a course after already playing it once.  I have only played one of my personal holy grail courses, and I can tell you that I certainly would drop everything to return again.

Brad Swanson

[ian]

Brad, may be I should add to what I said. I would drop everything every time if I had the resources to do it. Having limits on what I can do and see affects my choices. With so much greatness to see, would you return to Pine Valley or jump at the chance to play Shinnecock (as an example). Would you go to Ierland to play Ballybunion, Portrucsh and Royal County Down, or would you go to Cypress Point and Seminole in two seperate trips. These are my choices, and in each case I would choose the new course because I never know when I will not be able to travel. I would rather try see as much as possible, while understanding that I will not get every subtlety without returning a few times. That's life, you can't have it all so you make a choice.

For me these are not notches in the belt, but learning experieces, I spend a lot of time photographing each shot and hitting extra shots when I can. Each course provides me with an education on design that I hope to someday incorporate into something I'm building.

[Norbert P]

Dick, you may just be the reincarnation of the King Arthur's Knight, Percival.  Loyal to the search and the honor of the Knights of the Round Table.   I trust Holy Grails are wherever we appreciate being there and good company is always a welcome catalyst.  To Lawsonia and victory!!!  To Ireland and ancestral everlife!  To Scotland and freedom!   To home and fair maiden!

  
  

[ChipOat]

mdugger:

Teeth of the Dog is excellent and one of Dye's very very best.  Actually, given the seaside location, it may be THE best.

If TOTD was located in the US of A, it would be Top 20 easy - it's better than the Ocean Course IMO and more strikling than TPC.

The other 2 courses at Casa de Campo are also excellent.

But worth creating marital/employment strife?  That's a stretch.

[Lou_Duran]

1) ANGL- because I am a MacKenziemaniac, and despite all the recent changes, it is exponentially more impressive in person than on T.V.  Unlike Redanman, I would get on my knees and grovel a bit for a chance to play it.

2) Pine Valley- because according to several people whose opinions I value, it is in a class by itself.

3) CPC- if there is a better club course in nearly every respect anywhere, I am unaware of it.

4) NGLA, Shinney - "natural", exposed, historical; golf as it was meant to be.

5)  Seminole- purely because of its reputation and history; plus, there must be one course in Florida that can really knock my socks off.

Re: Casa de Campo-Teeth of the Dog, a great course, but not one that I would drop everything to go play.  It and Kiawah Ocean are pretty dramatic, and extremely difficult when the wind howls, but I personally like Dye's Long Cove nearly as well.  The Golf Club in Ohio is also a great course, but like Harbour Town, for me, it did not live up to its ranking.    

[paul cowley]

...TEpaul
   from your earlier post,if fernandina bch is on your holy grail list in a couple of weeks and a third or fourth is needed, and since none of our group has played it, maybe we could get together?......

[David Wigler]

Ian,

You are nuts  .  I have played CPC.  If someone calls this afternoon and says they have an opening in a foursome tomorrow, They won't be able to finish the sentence before I am on NWA.com looking for flights.  That is why it is a grail.  It has nothing to do with the "Notch in a belt."

[JMD]

So, I have this about Seminole:  I played there last month and was invited to play the next day (at the last minute), but did not cancel plans with friends at Lost Tree (a vastly inferior course) the next day.  What this says to me is that Seminole, although spectactular, is not Cypress Point or Shinne . . , or the National, or Brookline  all of which would get me on plane in the morning.  The "bloody hands" test may be the right one, and only a few pass.  I say:  Shinne, the National, Cypress Point, and Crystal Downs.

[ed_getka]

Tom,
 One glaring omission from my grail list: MERION!!

And yes, I would "drop everything", as explained earlier, to go to Rye. Its not much different than flying to the east coast for some of the others, its just a longer flight. In my conversations with Herb Wind about Rye and knowing the President's Putter is held there, and Bernard Darwin played there is enough for me. The ideal would be able to play and attend the President's Putter. Obviously this wouldn't be the only golf I would play if I traveled that far, but I would just as readily fly to England as NJ.

Cypress was the one course I wanted to play before I died, so if I hadn't been there before it would still be on my list, and I will never turn down an invite (except like last summer), but you only live once, and there are a lot of amazing courses to see.

Augusta doesn't make my grail list, although I wouldn't turn down an invite, but I wouldn't drop everything like I would for Merion, Pine Valley, et al.

[Brad Swanson]

David W and JMD,
   I think you understand what I was trying to convey here.  For me a grail is not all about seeing the course for the first time, but actually playing it, and loving it so much that you would sacrifice about anything (including a round at a great, but lesser course) to get back and play again.  Now if I only had the problem ofhaving to turn down Augusta because I was invited to play at one of my "holy grails' on the same day (crap right now, I'd take a round of golf on a course that has more live grass than dead, and that's a challenge here in Denver).

Brad Swanson

[ian]

David, sometimes when you pass up an opportunity, you make an opportunity for someone who deserves it more than you.

And my kids agree with you, I am nuts

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
 I'm interested in why you think your Top 5 or any Top 5 are Great. I want you to describe in exact detail why each paticular course is great, and worthy being a Holy Grail. What makes the courses worth jumping on a plane and going to play at all costs?

[ian]

Tommy,

I would be curious to know yours? With all your reading and travelling, your list treaks my curiosity.

In hindsight should the list not be one, the Old Course at St. Andrews as the only course worthy of the name Holy Grail?

[David Wigler]

Tommy,

I think you missed Tom's point (Although Tom can clearly defend himself, so I'll answer for me).  I cannot describe any feature of two of my three - Augusta and Pine Valley.  I have never played there and know pictures can be deceiving.  It is a mental state that you derive from the mere thought of being able to play on one of these courses.  Let me go one further, Shadow Creek was on the list.  I desperately wanted to play it ever since it was built.  As we have debated many times, I am a Fazio fan and this was his Opus.  The entire experience leading up to the round was surreal.  My anticipation when entering the gates was palpable.  I had goosebumps.  The course, while outstanding, did not remain in the grail category afterwards because it is probably a top 20 course in the US but it is not "Grail like."  The only other time I have had that feeling, related to golf, was pulling into CPC.  The sensation was identical.  CPC is paradise.

[Matt_Ward]

Corey M:

I just have to ask this -- after you told your supervisor about the special golf invite this did you still have the job afterwards? Thanks for sharing ... I've been in that same type of situation and for non-golfers it's very hard to conceptualize the NEED.

[JMD]

Brad:  I understand the standard, and think it's the right one.  My point simply was that Seminole did not meet that standard (for me).  I know it did for Hogan, who would play it 30 times the month before the Masters.  His game must have let him appreciate parts of the course that mine did not reach.  

The others on my list that I have played, the National and Shinne, meet that standard for me.  I'd leave almost anywhere on a moment's notice for a round there.  The others -- Crystal Downs and Cypress -- I know through pictures and writing, but I am confident that they would matter to me in similar fashion.

In all of these courses something about the interaction between the game and its surroundings is perfect.  That, at the end, is what makes something a holy grail -- isn't it?

[THuckaby2]

Tommy:

Dave Wigler has me covered - this isn't nearly as much about "greatness" as it is about a "feeling" one would get playing the place, the excitement derived from such, as Bob Huntley said.  And although I dug Shadow Creek way more than most people, Dave also nails that in his assessment also.

This whole thing is very difficult to quantify, and many thanks to Dave W. for trying.  He and I seem to look at this exactly the same.  Others have different takes, and it's all good by me... Talk about subjective - trying to say what makes a course a "grail" for any person encompasses what he loves about golf, his status in life, what he's willing to give up for golf... taking this WAY beyond just "what makes a course great."  JMD states it very well for me in his line about how it all comes together in perfection.  That's as best as anyone can sum this up, at least how I look at it.

One more question for Ed Getka:  I share all these thoughts about love for Rye, hey the President's Putter intrigues me also and I've read just about all the Darwin there is to read... But I still wouldn't call Rye a grail.  It's not that difficult to access, and at least for me doesn't have the "must see in one's lifetime" quality (as TOC does) to "overcome" this and make it a grail.  I feel like if I wrote the the proper people, I could get on... and it's not that far off the beaten path, so I may well get there some day without trying too hard.  Thus no grail status for Rye for me... If someone called me today and said I could play tomorrow, I'd ask if I could postpone till later when I'm there anyway!  One thing going against this though is Shivas' love for the course... for a long time he called it his favorite in all the word.  That does make me want to see it more than most other places... so maybe this is a grail after all?

This illustrates in any case why and how people look at this differently... and Ed's definitive, non-wishy-washy take is very valid, likely making more sense than mine.

TH

ps to Tommy - some day in person I'd love to discuss exactly what I find great about the courses I hold most dear, I know that's what you want, you've asked me for this one way or the other many times.  I'd bet anything you and I are very close in how we treat this, although I'm sure you doubt that now.  In any case,I've had enough already of being pinned down on here and trying to defend myself!  So bear with me if I tread lightly for awhile.