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Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Life of a FAUX Golf Course Architect
« on: April 06, 2003, 01:09:06 PM »
This afternoon, I am working on my first golf course community development for a landscape engineering and design class at UGA.  I finally arrive at a routing plan I'm comfortable with; but, I am terrified that I won't be able to fit the required number of lots on the property without moving some holes to less desirable property.

Well I start laying out the lots.  They're falling into place.  Man, it's looking great.  I'm getting confident now.  It's getting easier.  I'm flying now.  This is going to be the greatest development ever.  I'm almost done.  Are there enough?  I count them up.  160 lots.  I've got 10 EXTRA lots!  Damn, I'm good.  This golf course architecture business is a breeze.

And then it hits me.  I've just created 160 lots that are precisely 10,000 square feet TOO SMALL!  :o

Back to the computer.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Life of a Golf Course Architect
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2003, 02:34:59 PM »
Carlyle,
 The lots are easy to take care of. Cut the number of lots in half and call them estate lots. It works out here in Calif.  ::)
The bonus is that you can sell them for even more, without degrading your course. :D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Estate Lots
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2003, 03:05:49 PM »
Now there's an idea!  In fact, your suggestion is so practical I may name the development Getka Estates.  ;D

At least I didn't make the same mistake a classmate of mine made.  I inquired what the par was on his course.  He said 68.  I asked whether he had any par fives.  He said yes.  I said, "In that case, you better count how many holes you have!"   :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian

Re: The Life of a Golf Course Architect
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2003, 03:35:53 PM »
"Oh look that area that we previously said that we would let you use. Well sorry, thats actually got a rare species of tree/bird/ground cover/etc. You'll have to change the routing."

Insert Approvals Agency

"only 160 lots, no we just ran the numbers and the pro forma says 180"

Insert real eastate developer

That's what its like to be a golf architect working on a real estate project. Aren't I just a ray of sunshine, but its far to true.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve_L.

Re: The Life of a Golf Course Architect
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2003, 06:29:31 PM »
Carlyle...

I just read your first post - with the ending "back to the computer..."

You aren't trying to design this on a computer are you..?
Just curious...

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Life of a Golf Course Architect
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2003, 08:04:53 PM »
Carlyle,
   Does your classmate golf? Having my name attached to any development certainly won't help sell lots, but I never cease to be amazed at what people will pay for dreck that has "estates" in the name.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Computers and Golf Course Design
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2003, 08:23:08 PM »
Of course I'm using the computer.  I've traced the topography within AutuCAD, for starters.  That allowed me to model the land 3-dimensionally, evaluate the slope inventory, etc.  It's an exceptionally helpful tool.

I'll probably render the preponderance of the design by hand; but, it's certainly helpful to use the computer to do a lot of the preliminary analysis and design.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Getka Estates
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2003, 08:26:19 PM »
Ed:

Actually, I think I've settled on Hootie Country Club.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Life of a Golf Course Architect
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2003, 09:06:22 PM »
Watch out for the picketers! They'll be over after the Masters when they get wind of this.

The topos your using for this project, are they the ones you talked about showing us at Pasa? In the midst of visiting with everyone I forgot to ask to see them. Have fun Sunday at Augusta, I'm sure it'll be fun. I was there with my brother years ago for a Wed practice round and it was amazing to see the elevation changes and the green contours that you don't pick up on TV.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re: The Life of a Golf Course Architect
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2003, 05:28:16 AM »
Carlyle:

I think you are right on track.  Your lot size is good.  Clustering the homes on smaller lots, opening up space for golf and open space is the right approach.  There definately can be a market for your lot size.  Unless you were given other directives, I think you are right on track.  Do not make the mistake of trying to get every lot on the golf course.  Keep the residential clustered and to the side of the golf, do not run streets and lots throughout the course.  Good luck.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Life of a Golf Course Architect
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2003, 06:14:39 AM »
Carlyle,

You could always do what I do, which is "make the surveyor work for it".  I don't think I could get surveyors to find 10,000 SF per lot, though.  1000, maybe!

As Kelly says, there is a trend to not lining every course with lots.  I try to have each neighborhood exit out to a golf hole, preferrably the tee end, so the view is as the golfer sees it.  Thus, driving out each morning, each resident can "claim" a view of the golf course, which can enhance each lot.

I am currently designing a course where the developer realizes there is not a terrific market for premium lots.  Thus, we are using the course as a buffer to a nearby railroad, giving us the chance to replicate some of the old Scottish holes of Troon, Prestwick, etc.  How cool.  And, for strategy, 11 times a day, the variable strategy of bouncing one off a slow moving freight comes into play! ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Steve_L.

Re: The Life of a Golf Course Architect
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2003, 06:36:36 AM »
Don't know the preferred techniques of other professionals, but my preference in preliminary/conceptual design is to develop initial concepts by hand.  Particularly when working out roadway layouts, preliminary lotting, golf routings, etc...  To me - pencil to paper is the most intuitive bridge between brain and design...  

AutoCAD constrains the initial process (requiring arc-tangent design/etc) for my preference...  Leave that to the engineers!

What were the lot sizes and yield from you project criteria..?  

Kelly and Jeff give good input regarding developnent patterns - there is a definate shift away from "corridor golf" and to core golf with clustered residential and smaller lots...  Depends on your site and development/golf objectives...

Hope you share your final outcome with us...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re: The Life of a Golf Course Architect
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2003, 07:07:58 AM »
Steve L makes an excellent point.  Computers can not exceed the tremendous benefits gained from pencil and paper.  There definately is much to be gained in creative design by connecting the eye and brain with the pencil and the paper.  Ditch the computer when you get into the practice.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve_L.

Re: The Life of a Golf Course Architect
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2003, 07:12:44 AM »
Not to pile on...  But I think that the computer has benefitted the design practice through it's efficiency to produce final drawings, respond to revisions, etc...  Unfortunately it has also contributed to many marginal design solutions which have been obviously constrained by its application in the conceptual design phases.

Learn AutoCAD early, but learn to think as a designer from pencil to paper...  It will accelerate your education..!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Life of a Golf Course Architect
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2003, 08:05:14 AM »
Effectively, I am working by hand.  Although I'm using AutoCAD, I've created templates (from Richardson's book) and I'm dragging, rotating, and adjusting.  I have templates for standardized lot sizes too.

The nice thing is that I can save each preliminary layout on a different layer.  I can turn the topo on or off.  I can turn the shading for slopes on or off.  I can turn the ridgelines and drainage on or off.  All while seeing each routing with or without the above information.

Frequently, I'll plot out a preliminary design and scribble all over it--moving roads or lots around by hand.

Our instructor has us designing three plans with different clubhouse locations.  For each, we're to have a miniumum of 150 lots, with at least half lots fronting the golf course.  The minimum lot size is 40,000 square feet.  We also have to conform to local ordinances regarding roads and the like for the country the property is within.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve_L.

Re: The Life of a Golf Course Architect
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2003, 08:23:47 AM »
Respectfully, you don't get the flow with a digitizer as you do with a Sharpie and trace paper...  You can't see the whole site in the window of your computer screen...

With lots that big, I'd use 200' circles, tweek lot lines after you have your big movements made and have an idea where your yield is falling...  Any house can be accomodated in any number of configurations on nearly an acre - you can also build on land which may be too steep for golf...

When is the project due..?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Life of a Golf Course Architect
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2003, 08:38:58 AM »
I still use pencil and paper, but am pushing the entire office to think on the computer, myself included by the end of the year.

It is not necessarily a reduce tool that affects creativity, even if we aren't quite there yet.  An example - Kelly's long flowing lines are, more than he realizes, as a professor once pointed out to me, a function of his "wrist radius."  Is that a design criteria? Small wrist, small curves, large wrist, large curves?  Similarly, thinking in contour lines is more restrictive than we ever thought.  We tend to make things more the same height, as we have a preconcieved notion of what the contour lines should look like!

With current 3-D grading progams, we can concentrate on saying, "I want a ridge crossing the fairway at this angle, starting at 13 feet high, and tapering to nothing by the other edge of the fairway" or whatever.  We click in a few points. Then, in a minute, we can see a rendering of our idea!  If we don't like it, or need to change it, we click a few more times and start the process again.  If we like it, we ship it to the shaper after printing views from three or more angles, and he has absolutely no excuse for a wrong interpretation!

To me, that has potential to be a lot better for design than pen and pencil.  To each his own, however.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Life of a Golf Course Architect
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2003, 08:50:55 AM »
Very interesting input guys. I would love to see this process in person sometime if one of you wouldn't mind being pestered with questions. Good luck with the project Carlyle and I hope to see your finished product also.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Steve_L.

Re: The Life of a Golf Course Architect
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2003, 10:04:38 AM »

No doubt Jeff's comittment to computers will be ever more helpful in coordinating your work with engineers, and other design professionals...  And the ability to quantify earthwork is undeniable...  Modelling the land as you have described is a great evaluative tool.  But - where Carlyle is in the process is FAR upstream of that detail...

My design practice is planning, architecture & landscape architecture.  Even during initial building design, we work in pencil and paper - it is the best way to design and communicate with our clients and understand.  We find that when we start with the computer we constrain ourselves with a tool which is less intuitive...  We DO translate our design work to a computer format as quickly as we can - once the major movements are made we gain major efficiencies in drawing production.

In the case of Carlyle's project, we would never begin community planning/golf community projects with the computer, other than with the development of the project site base.  We would commit the project to the computer only after routings and lotting studies are completed.  

It is an interesting discussion.  I know how we work and how those who we work with work...  Would be interested in hearing from others...

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian Phillips

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Re: The Life of a Golf Course Architect
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2003, 12:26:15 PM »
I think you guys should have a look at Carlyle's website before saying anything.  

Well done!!

Great sketching and very clever website to try to get work.  If Jeff can afford you he should nab you this summer as soon as possible especially if he needs help on the computing side.

Good luck, you look like you are pretty 'switched on' already and stick with what YOU believe in.  I have a good habit of listening to and hassling Jeff for advice.

Brian.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
AutoCAD
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2003, 01:12:20 PM »
I'm being very loose with AutoCAD.  Having been a software developer for five years, I guess using the computer has become as second-nature as drawing by hand.  It's sort of like it's easier for me to write stream-of-conscious by typing rather than writing.  I simply type much faster.

This is a sampling of what I've done so far.  Tracing the topography was tedious, but it allowed me to use the tools to inventory the slopes.  I found it very helpful.  Afterwards, I began pasting pre-made templates for par 3s, 4s, and 5s and began dragging and rotating them around the property.  Then I just pasted some pre-made templates of desirable lot sizes.

It's nothing terribly formal, and it's precisely what my classmates are doing by hand.  When I'm confortable with the routing, I guess I'll begin freehanding fairways, bunkers, greens, and tees directly on the plotted paper.







I've got a long way to go.  Some roads just aren't working for me.  We've also got to do two more routings with clubhouses in different locations.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Steve_L.

Re: The Life of a Golf Course Architect
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2003, 01:30:30 PM »
Please don't interpret my feedback as criticism, only friendly advice.  The talent and passion for your work will ensure your success -whether you produce it with pencil, crayon, computer or in charcoal on the back of a shovel!

You are obviously off to a great start Carlyle - please keep us all up to date on your work...  And this project in particular.

Nice website - funny looking at the link to your handicap...  Must've had spring break recently (4 rounds of golf in one week!).  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Life of a Golf Course Architect
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2003, 02:47:44 PM »
Quote
Nice website - funny looking at the link to your handicap...  Must've had spring break recently (4 rounds of golf in one week!).  

Yep.  Just returned from Spring Break.  Those four rounds would be Pasatiempo, Pasatiempo, Pebble, and Spyglass.  I kind of scraped it around; but, I had a great trip.

Wow.  I just noticed that my handicap has jumped from a 4.0 to a 5.3.  This education thing is way overrated.  I've lost my authentic swing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »