News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


peter_p

Imagination and Strategy
« on: October 14, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Jose Maria Olazbal was quoted about St Andrews: "to play a course like this you need a lot of imagination. Sometimes you have to pitch the ball 40 yards short of the hole, next hole you have to take three of four clubs more than the distance to have to hit; you have to consider the cross winds and sometimes you have to be 30 yards right of the fairway and left of the flag and imagine what the ball is going to do when it hits the ground."     Pros for the most part don't need imagination- hit it high, spin it and it will stop. Many golfers can't do that  I hope current architects remember Olazabal's comments when they design a course so its kindly remembered by those of us not in the "grip and rip" generation.     Imagining what a ball will do, considering what the architect allows you to do iyou, and devising your strategy is the essence of golf.

Bob Ellington

Imagination and Strategy
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
That is why all golf housing project are doomed to failure - they give you no room to play.In fifty years time, when architects are building wide courses that follow the principles at St. Andrews, there will be a lot of remodeling opportunities for courses in this country!

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Imagination and Strategy
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2006, 04:16:43 PM »
I found this thread. I know we have had similar discussions but I like the two thoughts together.  Part of the joy of the game for me is imagination.  I love to visualize what I would like to do and then do it.  I would think designing a course that calls for it would be extremely difficult.  

On the discussion of the redan, imagination is important, hit a draw short and let it run, hit a high flier or as Tom Doak suggest long and left.

Maybe some holes that stand the test of time call for both imaginantion and strategy.  The better the imagination the more strategic the hole becomes.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Imagination and Strategy
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2006, 04:32:18 PM »
Good find Tommy, and cool topic Peter...Doesn't maintenance and wind have has much (or maybe more) to do with what a ball does after it hits the ground than the architecture?

I hope the futures of GCA and golf course maintenance preparation continue to merge together. A perfect marriage of the two is a win-win for all involved.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Imagination and Strategy
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2006, 05:49:32 PM »
Someone was pointing out in a thread recently that The Open had the highest percentage of great players winning it. We saw what Tiger did this year. Does it simply not mean the greatest players have the greatest imagination that allows them to pick the best strategy when conditions warrant it, such as at the Open. The US Open dictates stategy, and therefore has a lower percentage of the greats winning it. Seems the USGA is barking up the wrong tree.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2006, 05:50:37 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Steve Burrows

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Imagination and Strategy
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2006, 06:54:00 PM »
Garland Bayley,

Couldn't we just as easily say that this notion is an indictment against American golf courses, and not the players?  Perhaps it's our courses (Winged Foot, Merion, Oakmont, etc.) that lack the imagination of the courses on the British Isles?  I chose those as examples, as they are the sites of victories by Jones, Hogan, and Nicklaus, men of ample imagination and ability to devise a winning strategy.  

I'm not disputing the percentages of "greats" winning majors, but the Open can also be won by a relative nobody (Hamilton, Curtis, Lawrie, etc.).
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Imagination and Strategy
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2006, 07:12:58 PM »
My understanding is that WFW was narrowed significantly for the US Open. That normally it plays wider, plays with wind present, and plays quite strategically. Patrick is my source on the strategy.

I am learning more about Oakmont, and don't know much about Merion. So I am not that qualified to answer.

It would seem clear that the presentation of the courses for the Open provides more strategic options than the presentation of the courses for the US Open.

You seem to be implying that I was indicting American players. I don't know how you got that. Clearly, a lot of Americans have won the Open from Jones though Hogan, Nicklaus, Watson, to Woods.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Imagination and Strategy
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2006, 07:31:03 PM »
No wind, no golf.  Unfortunately wind and ground firmness to a lesser extent are beyond our ability to control.  But with global warming, who knows?

Pete,

How many amongst us have the ability to utilize the strategies we can conceptualize even on the widest of courses?  Most of us, like it or not, would score better if we just went with our strengths without regard of what he architect may have intended or provided in terms of options.  Wide fairways do give us more recovery opportunities which is great for us short/wild knockers, but even better for the grip & rip set.  

Steve Burrows

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Imagination and Strategy
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2006, 08:18:33 PM »
Garland Bayley,

I apologize for the mis-communication.  My intent was not to say anything bad about American golfers.  Rather, it was to question the USGA's selection process for tournaments.  As is evident in the discussions on this forum, there are scores of relevant courses on which to play the U.S. Open (for example), but still we go back to the places where strategy, based on the alterations to the course that we think are necessary (length, width of fairways, etc.), seems to take a back seat to an arguably one-dimensional game whereby options are are limited, at best.

Having said that, however, I actually like the Open setup, as a general rule, since it provides a test unlike any other during the year.  It's the same reason I like in August when they play the International.  The scoring system is a once a year thing, and like the brutality of a typical U.S. Open setup, is, for better or worse, a break from the week-to-week Tour schedule.
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Imagination and Strategy
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2006, 08:56:59 PM »
I wonder if a course like Merion might, in fact, call for imagination even for the pros.  They have to decide how far and where to hit it off the tee in order to hit their favorite shot into the green.  It seems to me that imagination isn't only about the shots into the green.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

TEPaul

Re:Imagination and Strategy
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2006, 10:21:46 PM »
"I found this thread. I know we have had similar discussions but I like the two thoughts together.  Part of the joy of the game for me is imagination.  I love to visualize what I would like to do and then do it.  I would think designing a course that calls for it would be extremely difficult."

tommy:

Not really. Designing a course to produce all kinds of interesting little strategies that require imagination is fine but if the maintenance practices aren't tailored to make the architecture function in most of its glory it just won't happen no matter how good the architecture is.

A little hillside course called Mallow in South Central Ireland that was ultra firm and fast required more imaginaton, in my opinion, than the best architecture in the world that didn't function due to lack of appropriate maintenance practices.


Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Imagination and Strategy
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2006, 10:41:50 PM »
"I found this thread. I know we have had similar discussions but I like the two thoughts together.  Part of the joy of the game for me is imagination.  I love to visualize what I would like to do and then do it.  I would think designing a course that calls for it would be extremely difficult."

tommy:

Not really. Designing a course to produce all kinds of interesting little strategies that require imagination is fine but if the maintenance practices aren't tailored to make the architecture function in most of its glory it just won't happen no matter how good the architecture is.

A little hillside course called Mallow in South Central Ireland that was ultra firm and fast required more imaginaton, in my opinion, than the best architecture in the world that didn't function due to lack of appropriate maintenance practices.



I think you are exactly right about the importnce of conditioning.  My course at home has a number of options into the greens including running up a shot.  When the course is wet it effectively takes away that option.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

ForkaB

Re:Imagination and Strategy
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2006, 01:52:05 PM »
Lou Duran has it right, above.

1.  Without wind, imagination doesn't come into the playing equation for the best players.  On almost all courses, the pros will figure out what they want to do before they even tee it up on Thrusday, and then follow the plan.  Even when it is playing ultra fast and firm.  Viz Tiger at Hoylake.

2.  Few if any of us on this board can or actually do use "strategery," or if we do, we shouldn't, except for recivery shots from our most egregious misses.  We talk stratgegy on here and in the bar afterwards, but if we are honest, we play to our strengths when we are on the course and just hope that we are in some kind of "zone" that day.....

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Imagination and Strategy
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2006, 02:01:19 PM »
...
2.  Few if any of us on this board can or actually do use "strategery," or if we do, we shouldn't, except for recivery shots from our most egregious misses.  We talk stratgegy on here and in the bar afterwards, but if we are honest, we play to our strengths when we are on the course and just hope that we are in some kind of "zone" that day.....

I have to disagree with Rihc on this. Even as a higher handicapper, I use strategy all the time. Playing without strategy would generally entail hitting it as far as possible with each drive (and 2nd on par 5s) and then trying to hit it as close as possible. I don't do this on many if not most holes of my home course. And, I would be surprised if others here do.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

ForkaB

Re:Imagination and Strategy
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2006, 03:08:58 PM »
Garland

I'm sure you have a plan for your home course, but that doesn't mean that you are thinking strategically when you play the course, unless that plan is flexible and adaptable to the conditions of the day (including your own capabilities and predilection for risk).  If not, you are just identifying a different "position A" on each hole than the gripper and ripper, and no more "strategic" than he (or she).

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Imagination and Strategy
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2006, 03:27:01 PM »
Rich,

The plan contains alternatives for conditions, and for failure to execute the original plan. Also, predilection to risk. Practice rounds go for the gusto, competition rounds, go for the more sure thing.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

ForkaB

Re:Imagination and Strategy
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2006, 03:34:56 PM »
OK, Garland

You are eligible for your secret strategy decoder ring. :)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Imagination and Strategy
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2006, 05:29:41 PM »
I must have been mis-using the term strategy all this time...is it not "planning the best way to play a hole"?

What exactly is the difference between Rich's and Garlands positions here?

ForkaB

Re:Imagination and Strategy
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2006, 06:50:24 AM »
Jim

I was disagreeing mostly with Garlnd's statement:

"Playing without strategy would generally entail hitting it as far as possible with each drive (and 2nd on par 5s) and then trying to hit it as close as possible."

That is in fact a strategy, and a very viable one for the good player, on some courses on some days.

To me, a golfer's strategy has to be both course specific and condition specific (with conditions including the player's own capabilities and objectives on the day, the status of any competition, the "maintenance meld" etc. as well as meteorology."  It is more about about knowing and calculating the options, in a dynamic sense, than "planning."  It is about being able to adjust, when all your knowledge and calculations are going horribly wrong (or even astonishingly right).

Cheers

Rich

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Imagination and Strategy
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2006, 10:19:46 AM »
Rich:

In golf everybody uses the word "strategy" because it sounds smarter, and nobody ever uses the word "tactics", but isn't there a difference?

Strategy -- the science of planning and directing large-scale military operations, specif. (as distinguished from TACTICS) of maneuvering forces into the most advantageous position prior to actual engagement with the enemy

Tactics -- the science of arranging and maneuvering military and naval forces in action or before the enemy, esp. (as distinguished from STRATEGY) with reference to short-range objectives

I guess you could read that in a number of ways, one of them being that architects are using strategy and golfers are using tactics to counter that strategy ... but if golfers are using strategy in any sense, I think it must be about "position" which appears in the first definition and not the second.  And to me positioning is about what line you are trying to take and how far you are trying to hit ... hitting as far as you can is a tactic but not a strategy.  It is not a strategy to "kill as many of the enemy as possible" is it?

ForkaB

Re:Imagination and Strategy
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2006, 11:14:21 AM »
Tom

To me, "policy," "strategy," "tactics," and "operations" are all part of a continuum, and all similar in form.  Each contains a set of objective and a series of means to achieve those objectives.  They cascade from top to bottom and bottom to top, i.e. the means of achieving policy objectives are strategies, the means of achieving strategies are tactics, etc. and vice versa.

That's most relevant for the creators of a course (developer, architect, associate, and crafstman.  For golfers it is both simpler an d more more complex, but as I'm off to a party, I'll deal with that later.

Rich

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Imagination and Strategy
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2006, 12:03:54 PM »
Jim

I was disagreeing mostly with Garlnd's statement:

"Playing without strategy would generally entail hitting it as far as possible with each drive (and 2nd on par 5s) and then trying to hit it as close as possible."

That is in fact a strategy, and a very viable one for the good player, on some courses on some days.
...

I suppose you could call it a strategy. Just not a very thoughtful one. I would disagree that most good golfers use it, because you certainly find a lot of them playing their layups to full wedge distance. However, most every hack out for his infrequent round thoughtlessly uses it, and I usually associate strategy with thought.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Imagination and Strategy
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2006, 12:24:29 PM »
Garland,

you are naturally quite right and a good course requires a player to alter his strategy/tatic often on a hole to hole basis. In fact the only flaw that I could find with Hoylake during the open was that Tiger Woods was able to win by disregarding one of the main clubs of the game namely the driver. This flaw was not in the same league as that of the rest of the field not realising that this was a tactic to be taken more seriously.

Paul Payne

Re:Imagination and Strategy
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2006, 12:37:16 PM »
Tom,

I agree with your take on Strategy vs. tactics. Here is the way I would view this as it pertains to golf.

Strategy is the plan you develop at the outset of your round. Examples would be when Phil bagged two drivers or when Tiger seemed to make a decision not to go with driver at Hoylake. It seems to me that a good strategy is going to be developed based on the course and conditions you will be facing. Each new course is a new battle so to speak.

Tactics would be the execution of your strategy on a shot by shot and hole by hole basis. This to me would indeed include decisions such as which side of the fairway to hit or whether to lay up.

In the end however I think both have to be considered when you eveluate an individual hole. Tactically it would include how to play the particular hole. Strategically it would be how that hole blends (or doesn't) with the rest of the course, the land, prevailing conditions etc.

Seems to me this becomes a starting point for evaluating a hole or a full course.


Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Imagination and Strategy
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2006, 02:39:06 PM »
Professor Goodale,

Having been involved in planning and strategy with a couple major corporations and a federal agency, my perspective on this subject is probably a bit more technical than most.   As a golfer for many years, when I hear people wax on about strategy in design and play, well, I sometimes just scratch my head.

Your suggestion of a continium is a good one.  I normally think of objectives as rather loose goals, perhaps achievable, but largely idealized and undefined.  Strategy is a macro or topside effort to bring these objectives or goals into more quantified terms which can then be tested for reasonableness and possible implementation via plans, budgets, various initiatives, etc.  Another way of looking at it is that strategy is the WHAT and tactics are the HOW.

How this relates to golf is unclear to me.  An architect, intentionally sometimes, provides a range of options on how to play a hole.  As you noted, mother nature, the surperintendent, the individual golfer's condition that day, the competition, and a number of other extrinsic factors provide further variables.  Considering that on our best days most of us can't dial up the intended swing more than a few times, what is the use of well-laid plans ahead ot time?

I think that you're right on when you said "It is more about about knowing and calculating the options, in a dynamic sense, than "planning."  It is about being able to adjust, when all your knowledge and calculations are going horribly wrong (or even astonishingly right)."  For many of us who have played for years, seriously some of the time, it is real time processing, perhaps with a bit of instinct.   It undoubtedly involves the imagination, but it is certainly not detailed planning nor strategic in a concious sense.    
 
« Last Edit: December 29, 2006, 02:42:00 PM by Lou_Duran »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back