Biarritz Holes

[Ran Morrissett]

Are Biarrritz holes by defintion supposed to have BOTH before and after the swale as putting green?For instance, Shore Acres has recently started to treat the front before the swale as green. Yale of course will always be the most striking example.Still, greens like 16 at Yeamans and 8 at Carmago may never have been extended back to the tee past the swale. Is that right? Did Raynor in fact build greens that started after the swale?In the case of Shore Acres, I have no hestitation in saying they did the right thing by extending the green toward the tee. It makes the hole infinitely more interesting.

[Bob Ellington]

I am not a fan of Biarritz holes. I have read that in theory you are supposed to play the shot so that it hits on the downslope of the swale to thus propel it to the back cup locations??If you are that accurate, why not just fly it all the way back there to begin with? What am I missing?It seems like over-design to me.

[bruce williams]

are raynor/macdonald the only ones to build such holes? i am aware of the version at yale but are there any others in the northeast? i am unaware if there are.wonder why more architects didn't emulate raynor/macdonald in building such holes?

[David Staebler]

The 3rd at Chicago Golf does not mow the area in fornt of the dip as putting green.  I understand at one time they did.

[Ted_Sturges]

To Bruce Williams:There is a wonderful Biarritz hole at Fishers Island (less than an hour from Yale-not including the boat ride).

[George_Bahto]

Shortly after Macdonald & Raynor built the first Biarritz green at Piping Rock an article was written in either Golf Illustrated or American Golfer describing the strategy of playing the hole.  Bear in mind that at that time a long hitter could only hit the ball about 180 yards in the air.  The "thrill" of playing the Piping Rock Biarritz was to hit what was referred to as a "push shot", a low line drive of sorts, that would hit on the front section, which was cropped low and not cut as putting surface, ......... hit a low line drive, land on the front section, watch the ball dissappear through the swale and "hopefully it would reappear on the green"An article describing the Biarritz at Willie K. Vanderbilt's (original) Deepdale course (1925-1927) reads similarly.Piping Rock's Biarritz was never designed to been fully planted as green, very few originally were.  Until a few years ago there were only two or three Biarritz greens fully "planted".  There are an awful lot of them now full "double greens" (if we can call them that).  Some of these can be attributed to Tom Doaks work and some may be a result of my "meddling" while visiting these courses ......    :-)These greens are normally 225 to 250 feet long and when in full-blown putting surface are very dramatic. Shoreacre's Biarritz, their 8th, may be the largest in area as was the one at my course The Knoll. The Knoll measures 248 yards from the tips - it was originally planted full green by Banks in 1928-1929 but it was never reestablished after it was cut back to a single green during the period of WWII. But we still have the two wonderful little mounds in the "front" area that were designed to deflect some of these low "liners" - I've never seen anyplace else. Most were taken out because no one knew what they were for. I have a copy of a Charlie Banks greens (only) blueprint from his Westhampton Oneck course that clearly shows these mounds as well as the usual "horseshoe" features Raynor and he put into those approach areas.Yale's swale (that rhymes) is the deepest and Creek's is the shallowest because of the high water table (for those who have never seen pics of the Creek's 11th, the entire green and little else is an island).There were a number of "single green" Biarritz' built - by that I mean the front area was not "elevated" - Westhampton's 9th and Otto Kahn's 8th (I think it is/was the 8th) are two that come to mind and I have a hunch the Biarritz at Lido (along the beach front) may have been a "single green" version.

[Ran Morrissett]

George,Can you go into the particulars of the way Raynor was going to set up the Biarritz at Cypress Point?Cheers

[George_Bahto]

sorry for the typo on Shoreacres' Biarritz

[George_Bahto]

Ran - Raynor & Cypress Biarritz:  no way of knowing but with few exceptions his Biarritz greens were all set up the same however I would suspect that because of the angle of play there he may have been thinking single green as per A MacK. (sorry that is pretty presumption on my part) - been trying to come up with the orignal Raynor Cypress routing for years (HELP!anyone) - there is another one at Essex County CC in NJ that has an oblique angle of play. That one was angled over a series of long strip bunkers - swale now gone.Biarritz trivia: there is a Biarritz green abandoned in the middle of CC of Fairfield's 10th fairway (the 10th there a Cornish hole based on a RT Jones drawing) - another abandoned Biarritz green is in the practice area of the Rumson CC course resulting from a clubhouse repositioning many years ago - the green sits there plain as day (Rumson did not know Raynor had done their course)

[George_Bahto]

To Bruce Williams:Look up in Whitten / Cornish, any Macdonald Raynor Banks course here in the north east (or anyplace else and you will find a Biarritz in one form or another (originally) on them all .....  EXCEPT the National

[Ted_Sturges]

To George,My dad grew up caddying at CC of Fairfield.  I have not played there, but on a recent visit back to the area, my dad and I went out for a look.  I saw clear as day the biarritz swale and wondered what it was doing there.  Are you saying that it is from a previous routing, or did he use this swale in a different presentation (other than a 1 shot hole) on this golf course?  Please elaborate.

[George_Bahto]

Ted:  The Biarritz green at CC Fairfield is not just a swale, the entire green is in the fairway and the tee is 230 or so yards back, off fairway, in the left rough.  RTJ submitted an elaborate plan to change about 5 holes.  He never got the job but Geoff Cornish and Co. came in and did two of the suggested holes, one of which is the present 10th.  When he made the new 10th he never took out the Biarritz green and it sits way down on the 10th fairway. That was Raynor's original Biarritz hole for the CC of Fairfield.Cornish's company did another hole according to RTJ Sr's submitted plans at CC of F.  Other holes on the Jones plan were done in house by a talented super who was there for years.There was an interesting optional-fairway on the present 6th hole.  The original tee was way off to the left of the present 6th tee and the optional fairway was parallel to the one in use now.  Raynor liked to present these optional fairway holes - CB established the style from an the original 16th hole at Littlestone, 1897 (no longer in the old configuration).  16th Littlestone was the model for the great Channel hole at (oringal) Lido.If you look in Bauer's book, Hazards, and you will see a pic of the Littlestone 16th frontal cross-bunker.

[gookin]

If you are getting tired of my digging up these old posts please let me know.  The 17th green at Fox Chapel went for my guess over 60 years without cutting the front part of the biarritz.  With the encouragement of Brian Silva and the support of the USGA, we restored the front of the green prior to the Curtis Cup in 2002.  It was a big success and showed extremely well for the ESPN coverage. One interesting point, Silva and Bahto two students of Raynor disagree of whether the front portion is appropriate for a pin placement.  As discussed earlier Bahto claims the front portion of the biarritz was intended as a run up to a hole that was out of reach of the golfers of that day without a closely mown surface to run through. As such, a front pin defeated the purpose.  Silva disagrees and suggests a front pin adds tremendous variety and to challenge a front pin risks ending up in our case in a five foot deep swale just beyond the pin.  Who do you think is right?

[RJ_Daley]

Although I posted this Biarritz at Blue Mound CC recently, it is worth another look.  It is not mowed to green length on the front portion, but the fairway cut is not much more than 7/16ths.  At times of year when not overwatered, it could be a real spanker.  That is a pretty deep swale too.  Check the first picture and just the tops of the heads of the caddies and players standing in swale.  I think it plays about 210-220.





I'm inclined to think George is always right, and I think this was intended as a run-up hole too, not a two portioned green...

[SPDB]

This is a debate with considerable provenance. I suspect if you dig way back you will find a discussion Shooter and I had about this. That is, until we got our comeuppance from George B.

[GeoffreyC]

Gookin

At Yale, the 9th is pinned on the front section of green approximately 80-90 % of the time.  This is unfortunate and likely a means of moving play along more quickly.

Front pins on #9 do in fact bring the water into play where it would not be with the more traditional back pins. However, front pins are a real let down both in that they are MUCH easier and less interesting to play to. The player clearly needs to factor club selection that will absolutely carry the water but not run past a pin and into the swale. That in itself as a stand alone par 3 would be interesting and worthy but back pins are sooooooo much more challenging at Yale due to the great difficulty with pitching the ball to the back tier if you do miss the green. Also, a 5 or 6 iron is a typical club to front pins while long irons or fairway metals are used to back pins. The putting surface back there is tilted right to left on a more severe angle and this makes putting even if you are on the correct level quite difficult.

I would favor putting the pin on the back 80-90 % of the time and front the remaining rounds. There is nothing more satisfying then watching a ball necociate the swale and feed to a back pin.  That is a fun shot.

[Mike Hendren]

Geoff et al,

With a fronting hazard such as the water at Yale, would it make since for the REAR plateau of a Biarritz to kept at fairway height and perhaps enlarge the swale to create a flat pinnable area?  I'm not at all suggesting this for Yale but instead for new construction.  This would be wholly consistent with Thomas' concept of fairway behind the green?

Mike

[gookin]

Thanks for the comments.  As a rule of thumb at  Fox Chapel we place the pin on the rear portion most of the time.  Members prefer the hole that way.  We place the pin up front one day per week usually on a week day.  We are having the PA Amateur this year and I think we should put the pin up front for one round.  

Our original design has a fronting (topping) bunker.  It would indeed add to the interest in the front pin. I hope Brian Silva can talk us into putting it back.

[Mark_Fine]

Does anyone have a picture of the original Biarritz hole they can post that inspired all these creations?  

[T_MacWood]

I'd try to get my hands on George Bahto's book or the great article on the Biarritz (by Gib P and George) in the magazine Golf Architecture (last years issue).

[TEPaul]

gookin;

My basic feeling is Brian Silva is right when one looks at the way things are today, although George may be right in an historical context.

There's no question in my mind that front section (in front of the swale) greenspace definitely creates much greater variety for a wider array of golfers--and because of that greater overall interest which, of course, is a good thing to strive for! The pinnable strategic implications on a green that's about 80 yards long (both sides of the swale) as Fox Chapel's is today and the Creek's is today is almost limitless when looked at as to the variety (options) it can create for everyone.

I have a theory on the original greenspace question on Biarritzes. Basically, the theory is where the side bunkering (I call them Biarritz coffin bunkering) STARTS is where greenspace may have once been or if it wasn't the concept was such that it could have been (in the mind of a Raynor or Macdonald).

This theory would be worth someone (willing to do the reasearch) to try and determine its accuracy of. What that would mean is if a biarritz had no original coffin bunkering in front of the swale then greenspace in front of the swale was never meant to be. But if the bunkering did start before the swale greenspace once was there at some point or it could have been (in the mind of Raynor/Macd)

Some like Piping, Fishers, Westhampton do have coffin bunkering that started before the swale but it appears they never had greenspace in front of the swale. At the moment, by the way, I can't really think of a Biarritz that did not have coffin bunkering in front of the swale originally with the exception of Mountain Lake (until recently) but it also appears Mountain Lake's Biarritz may never have had a swale originally (until recently).

From looking at the available photographic evidence with DW in and around Fox Chapel there's no question at all that the original coffin bunkering started before the swale (obsoleted not---and you can also see the shorter carry bunker!) but it also appears that the space before the swale at Fox Chapel never was greenspace. Basically from the very old aerials I've seen of Fox Chapel it appears the space before the swale was fairway but it's very hard to tell from those old aerials.

My feeling is now that Fox Chapel has restored the greenspace in front of the swale they should also restore the original coffin bunkering on either side short of the swale. There's no question that would be an accurate restoration and also something that would play much more interesting and challenging for all levels of the membership.

Of course there's a problem with access and egress if the front section of those coffing bunkers were restored, particularly with cart traffic but my recommendation would be to simply plant a grass walkway in the left coffin bunkering immediately adjacent to the swale and that would certainly help access and egress to the green surface. It wouldn't need to be more than two yards wide.

[gookin]

TEPaul,

Don't worry I have very thick skin. We want to get the widest possible range of opinions to make certain any choices we make have been thoroughly thought out.  I have had a great time over the past few weeks getting everyone's opinion.  I have no plans to stop now.

[jefffraim]

Hey george how are you? I am now at the Everglades Club in Florida. Please come visit. If I recall the blueprints from Yeamans Hall show their biarritz green as being huge. Jim and I both felt that it was originally a full biarritz.

[TEPaul]

Jeffraim;

We've never met but I heard you were real interested in golf architecture and I'm pretty sure you'd probably never imagine how I know that.

[Hunt]

For your discussion on Biarritz holes:
From The front right bunker of St Louis CC's Biarritz at #2


Swale from left side:


From front left bunker:


View from front of green:


View from back of green:



This is an uphill 175-240 yard Par 3 (orginally Par 4). The bunkering is more severe on the right as illustrated and the coffin bunkers do appear the length of this green on the left.

Pin positions exist all over this green-front, back and the occasional placement in the middle of the swale.

Gookin-
I suspect some of Silva's thoughts on your biarritz are taken from his study here. I encourage you to take advantage of this green area per the architect's desire.

If you'd like more info, IM me.

Regards,

Hunt