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ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2007, 03:37:59 PM »
I did research on Phoenixville for my book and there is no documentation of Wilson working there.

Anthony

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2007, 05:04:46 PM »
Joel:

I appreciate your bringing this back up.  It's a good business model for a small-town property -- BUT most American developers are not thinking small.

We did do a renovation of the nine-hole course at Aetna Springs in California, mentioned briefly here last summer.  It opens for play next spring.  We have no pretensions that it's going to be ranked or anything, and that made it a fun project to do.  There's some edgy stuff that we wouldn't build on a "big" project (tiny greens, trees in play) but there are only 14 small bunkers on the whole thing.

Tom:

I guess it's a commentary on my tastes and sensibility, but I'm as interested to see Aetna Springs as any of your most recent work. Sounds like a very interesting project.

With any luck, I'll be embarking on a similar project here in Canada in the near future... a nine-hole course on an interesting site, in a neat locale, that is under the radar and won't be ranked or anything when I'm done.

Nonetheless, I'm quite excited about the prospects.  
jeffmingay.com

Joe Bausch

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Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2007, 05:22:01 PM »
Interesting that the history of Phoenixville doesn't mention Hugh Wilson as the designer.  

http://www.phoenixvillecc.com/history.html

Does anyone know the source of this attribution?


But another part of their web page certainly mentions Doak's comments about Wilson:

http://www.phoenixvillecc.com/golf-guide.html


@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2007, 05:35:57 PM »
Then I guess we need to ask Tom Doak for the source of his information.

Does anyone know how to reach the guy?  

;)

J_ Crisham

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Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2007, 05:55:28 PM »
The Dunes Club is truly one of the neatest golf retreats you will ever play. If you can find it -which is no easy thing- it is well worth the search-a real treat. I would guess the slope to be in the 140 range definitely a test. A few loose swings and you can post some big numbers. Probably the most spartan clubhouse but very nice- all they need for a burger and some drinks. I remember our caddy leaving the 8th green to go fire up the barby! The course has some great elevation changes that utilize some of the dunestops. Thought the 1st was a hell of an opener-no range, just a net to hit into to loosen up. Great place to play if one is able to. A bit of advice - a large SUV is  a tight squeeze thru the entrance point in the fence.

Tom_Doak

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Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2007, 07:41:29 PM »
Mike C:

Bill Kittleman is the one who told me that Hugh Wilson built the original nine at Phoenixville, back when he was doing renovation work there.  He said the only four courses H.W. worked on were Merion West and East, Cobbs Creek and Phoenixville.  I've never seen any written record of it, though.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2007, 08:01:41 PM »
Mike C:

Bill Kittleman is the one who told me that Hugh Wilson built the original nine at Phoenixville, back when he was doing renovation work there.  He said the only four courses H.W. worked on were Merion West and East, Cobbs Creek and Phoenixville.  I've never seen any written record of it, though.

Tom,

That's interesting.  We've dug up some info recently that indicates Hugh Wilson also did some work significant revision work on the older (South) course at Philmont, and we also now know about his routing of Seaview, although Donald Ross did most of the bunkering later, assisted by pro Wilfred Reid and William Connellan, right around the same time that Wilson spent six months on the design of Cobbs Creek.  

Kyle Harris

Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2007, 08:04:12 PM »
From the aerials I've seen on PSU's Penn Pilot, Phoenixville is pretty well preserved since 1938 and today.

Tom Doak,

What sort of work was Bill Kittleman doing at Phoenixville? This course fascinates me - so much so that it's the setting for my golf novel.

kevinT

Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2007, 08:12:00 PM »
I have not played many 9 hole golf courses but the one that I have played about a dozen times is Moorestown Field Club in NJ.  I have played before Kelly Blake Morans' work and also with the changes that he has made and I really enjoy the golf course, especially after the changes with the addition of fairway bunkers and chipping areas.  I feel it is a must play.

Kyle Harris

Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2007, 08:12:41 PM »
Merchantville in New Jersey is another one that simply fascinates me. From what I can tell, playing there would be like stepping through a time machine.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2007, 09:13:58 PM »
I have not played many 9 hole golf courses but the one that I have played about a dozen times is Moorestown Field Club in NJ.  I have played before Kelly Blake Morans' work and also with the changes that he has made and I really enjoy the golf course, especially after the changes with the addition of fairway bunkers and chipping areas.  I feel it is a must play.

Kevin,

Moorestown Field Club was designed by Samuel Allen, the man who also invented the Flexible Flyer sled.

I also believe he designed the original nine holes at Pocono Manor.  

I didn't know that Kelly did work there.   It's been on my short-list to play for a long time now.

I have no idea who designed Merchantville, but I'm sure it's another that I'd love to get to.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2007, 09:14:38 PM by MPCirba »

Jason Connor

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Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2007, 09:17:03 PM »
I live near Carmel but hadn't heard of Asherwood.  So in looking it up, I found this interesting article about "home" courses.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_10_51/ai_65486572


We discovered that in good company there is no such thing as a bad golf course.  - James Dodson

Mike_Cirba

Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2007, 09:28:56 PM »
This might not fit into the "best" category, but for pure historical fascination served up with a sizeable dollop of charm there is not much that beats the St. Martins course at Phildelphia Cricket Club.  

This is a remaining nine holes of what was the 18 hole Cricket Club course that hosted the 1907 and 1910 US Opens.   The design history is fascinating, as well, with the first nine designed by greenkeeper Sanders Handford in 1895, and another nine added in 1898 by Willie Tucker and Samuel Heebner.   Just the other day I came across an article that indicated that Donald Ross made improvements there around 1915.

In any case, there is no irrigation, so it's definitely a living time capsule.

In a similar vein is the 9-hole Scotch Hills Golf CLub in Scotch Hills, NJ.   This short (2247 yards, par 33) course is what remains of what was originally Westfield Golf Club, before being purchased and run for many years as Shady Rest Country Club, the only African-American owned golf club in the country.  John Shippen was the pro there for a long time and the club was the primo spot for black entertainers and athletes for many decades, before being taken over by the county and run as a public course since the 60s.   Some of the most wild greens I've ever seen.

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2007, 09:42:42 PM »
The Short course   at Shady Oaks c. 2,000  yards has  some  excellent greensites ,  lovely  land  and  tiny greens. I believe  RTJ sr  was  the architect of this  Fort Worth 9 holer.

I believe Langford's gem at  Culver and   Maxwell's  9 holer Coffeyville,  KS. are  both worthy of study

Greg Murphy

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Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2007, 01:22:53 AM »
When I read Anthony's book last Christmas, I was struck by the fact that he was able to mention only one nine holer of note built in America in the modern era—The Dunes Club. When you think of the hundreds and hundreds of courses built in the U.S. during that period, it really is incredible. I thought Tony must've missed a bunch. I decided to focus on Canada, did a little internet research and emailed a few people including golf associations to see if I could get recommendations on worthy Canadian nine holers. It didn't take me long to conclude that Tony had not been slip-shod in his homework on U.S. courses. (Sorry I ever doubted you!) In all of Canada, I have yet to come up with a list of even a dozen worthy nine holers, modern or not. Mabel Lakes in B.C. was suggested as the best in B.C. Photos on its website show a beautiful lake, mountains and forest but the site's emphasis on the clubhouse, cart paths, water fountains, rock walls, etc., rather than the course itself is a bit scary. Saskatchewan has Katepwa Beach and Riverbreaks. Ontario has Uplands (originally an 18 holer designed by Stanley Thompson) and there's a course in the Muskoka region called Diamond in the Ruff which looks worthwhile. In P.E.I. there is a course called Eagle's View.

Why so few nine holers? Developers don't give them a thought so most nine holers, like Katepwa Beach and the 1999 Engh designed, Medicine Hole, in North Dakota, are brought to life by a community of players (a "club") rather than an individual property developer or resort development. It is no easy task for a club to put together the vision, faith, capital and talent to get something like this done. But it can be done and has been done in a few places where it has also proven to be a viable model from an operations standpoint.


Tyler Kearns

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Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2007, 09:53:10 AM »
Greg,

Most nine-hole commissions we have received have been to expand rural golf courses from 9 to 18 holes. There certainly exists a belief that anything short of 18 holes is not a complete course, and deemed inferior by many golfers. If you are reliant on golfers traveling any distance to play a golf course, 18 holes is an asset for enticing play, and thus, not many 9 holers are built. A 9 hole course has a much greater chance of surviving if it is one of many activities to do in an area (hunting, fishing, hiking, boating etc.)

An exception to the expansions we have completed to date is Spruce Creek in northwestern Ontario which opened in the summer of 2007. A very nice site, with decent undulations and featuring numerous rock outcroppings that gave it a strong identity. We completed a 'Biarritz' green at the conclusion of a short par-5 which was even more fun to play in reality than I had ever imagined. Ultimately, I do not think the goal of the clients were to push through 30,000 rounds a summer over their golf course, but rather a nice, quiet retreat for themselves and the locals, while offering an additional option to tourists visiting their fishing lodge.

TK

Joe Bausch

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Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2007, 10:41:35 AM »
Perhaps this is really directed at our archies out there:  how hard would it be to design a 9 hole course on say 1/2 the typical land needed for an 18 holer AND make it such that after playing it one day in a certain routing, the next day it could be a 'new' nine holes by playing from/to different tees/greens?
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2007, 11:28:50 AM »
Greg:

I'm glad you checked up on me and found the same results. And let me just say this, and I mean it from the pit of my stomach, which is bigger than my heart, To the Nines makes a wonderful gift for that special person in your life.

I did lots of checking too because I had a difficult time believing there were so few good nine-hole courses built in the modern era. There just weren't. What many people consider to be very good or great nines are, in reality, crap. For the record, I'm not as in love with The Dunes as most people.

The most amazing statistic I came across is that Jack Nicklaus had never even been approached about building a nine. At the time his firm had worked on 220-plus courses worldwide.

My guess is that in certain parts of the country - New England, for instance - nines will become popular for two reasons, 1) The good land has all but been used up. That land which hasn't is being used for housing; B) With the amount of time it takes to play, people can not afford to have 6 or 7 hours - depending on drive time - taken up by golf.

I think I well-designed nine-hole course with plenty of strategy that brings enjoyment to the average golfer can do well utilizing the two-tee system, of which I am not a fan but realize its appeal.

Brad Faxon has said he'd rather see 9 really good holes built than an 18-hole layout with 9 really good holes and 9 mediocre or crappy holes. The reality is, however, no architect would ever say, "I'd rather you cut my fee and me build a very good nine rather than an mediocre 18."

Anthony


 
« Last Edit: December 17, 2007, 11:37:22 AM by Anthony Pioppi »

ward peyronnin

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Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2007, 11:37:57 AM »
Anthony
Who could ever afford to pay Nicklaus to design "half " a golf course?

Another very sporting nine holer i just remembered is St Olaf's , the Ladies course, at Cruden Bay. It has some world class holes and i would recommend that anyone going that far to play get in an emergency nine the day you play CB.
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Adam_Messix

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Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2007, 02:11:55 PM »
Kyle & Mike--

Merchantville is a cool course that is quite difficult but is not overly tight.  Actually, it's an 11 hole course where the 3rd and 4th holes have separate tees & greens.  I can only imagine playing the monster 2nd hole with hickories and a guttie ball, it had to seem like a monster at 590 yards.  Most of the holes on the clubhouse side of the road are excellent stuff even by modern standards.  I particularly like the long par 3 6th and the driveable 7th holes.   Interesting green sites and mounding and you can tell the bunkers have never been rebuilt with their high lips from sand being splashed out.  
« Last Edit: December 17, 2007, 02:42:23 PM by Adam_Messix »

Greg Murphy

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Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #45 on: December 17, 2007, 02:36:51 PM »
Anthony and Tyler,

Good to hear about your recent nine holer, Tyler. I agree with you, there is definitely a belief that nine hole golf courses are an inferior substitute to eighteen hole golf. As Anthony observes, much of that belief is founded in experience—so many nine hole courses really do suck. They certainly wouldn’t have anything remotely interesting like your Biarritz green.

It’s almost as though there’s an underlying assumption that if you halve the number of holes, everything else must be accordingly diluted. So we get featureless, drab little (literally, LITTLE) layouts that don’t for a moment even pretend to be anything but a diminished version of the real thing. The opposite assumption could prevail, where the goal of building the best nine holes possible might actually be thought of as an advantage, reducing the odds of weak, filler holes arising. But the examples of this attitude, like Maxwell’s original Prairie Dunes and Kaiser’s realized vision for The Dunes, are so few and far between, the motivation to create really good nine holers has never really taken root.

Tom Doak started a thread a few months back about best alternative courses, for a situation where it sounded like some really good holes could be found and developed for his potential client, just not eighteen. I was surprised how many responses suggested creating a high quality “executive” or par 3 experience. Given a beautiful piece of ground lacking room for eighteen holes, to me, it’s a real shame any time nine impressive holes of Prairie Dunes or Dunes Club quality would lose out to eighteen downsized holes, but I bet that’s happened many dozens of times in the modern era. The problem is not so much with designers, for as Doak wrote in “Anatomy of a Golf Course, “Few developers with modest aspirations hire a golf architect with imagination and give him the license to design something worthwhile.”

I think Tyler is right, that nine holers are a good fit when golf is just one of many activities, for instance in cottage country where people are hunting, fishing, boating, hiking, etc., and not prepared to devote virtually the whole day to golf. With modern lifestyles, this may have similar application in urban settings, too.

Mark Smolens

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Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2007, 06:19:36 PM »
As I recall our discussion with Mr. O'Neal at Ballyneal, his initial thought when contacting his brother about retaining an architect in Holyoke was to have a 9-hole course built to entertain clients on site at his hunt club.

With respect to the Dunes, it was my understanding that Mr. Keiser bought the property to prevent it from being developed, and a nine hole course turned out to be the "best" use -- it may or may not be the "best" nine hole course in the land, but if there's a harder one out there I'd like to see it.  That place has kicked my butt every time I've been there.

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2007, 07:55:04 PM »
Mark:

I think Gleneagles in San Francisco is more difficult than The Dunes.

Tony


John Keenan

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Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2007, 08:03:52 PM »
Gleneagles is one tough track. But a great course to play.

Of late I hae been playing a lot of 9 hole courses as my wife is just starting out. Has anyone played the Peter Hay course in PB?

The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Nine Hole Courses/Clubs
« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2007, 09:20:23 PM »
One of the great regrets I have was wasting invaluable time at Pebble playing Peter Hay!Should have played Pacific Grove Muny as I have heard good things.