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Ted_Sturges

Most Overrated Architects
« on: September 14, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
I would enjoy reading everyone's nomination for the most overrated golf course architect of all time.  Please support your thesis with examples of his/her work.  I'd be interested to know what you might consider to be the nominee's "best work", and what you might consider to be the nominee's "worst work". Multiple nominations are permitted.  Let the games begin.

George_Bahto

  • Total Karma: 0
Most Overrated Architects
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Ted, great question - this should be FUN!
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Ben DeLow

Most Overrated Architects
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Is there any question: Tom Fazio in a landslide. Never has a man been able to get bigger budgets, better sites and the resources to build modern masterpieces. He is repeatedly called a genius, yet his work is completely forgettable and the revolving door of his layouts on the rankings proves it. Strategy is out of the question in the Fazio mindset, just strangely places bunkers to touch up the landscape. Just look at Caves Valley. Have you ever seen a course with so little strategy or interest (other than the wonderful buffet and lodging of course).But take World Woods, the Pine Barrens course. Many consider it his finest design. Yet, it appears to have been routed around two strategically placed restrooms, and there are three or four really intersting holes on the course. The rest are average, and on the third or fourth time around could put you to sleep. The Rolling Oaks is awful. Finally, just look at the Short Course at Pine Valley. Ten years later and it has hardly become the fun little pre or post round course that it should be, like the par-3 at Augusta is. It has no character or charm, something that an architect who understands the game would have injected.Tom Fazio is without question the most overrated ever to practice the profession. More than even the great Trent Jones Sr. or Rees. At least Rees knows he's no good, that's why he goes around trying to attach his name to classics.

Tony Dowling

Most Overrated Architects
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Any professional golfer.The Jack Niclaus course in Queensland is a complete and utter disgrace and should never have been built.

Mike Richardson

Most Overrated Architects
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
It has to be Yeamans Hall.  Oh, that's right, you were asking about the most overrated architech.  Just kidding.

The Commissioner Emeritus

Most Overrated Architects
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Mr. Richardson,I believe the essay assigned to you and Dr. Craig by The Commissioner Emeritus has still not been turned in. In addition, this outburst will certainly not advance your Commissioner's Cup career.

Ward_Peyronnin

Most Overrated Architects
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
I know P. Dye has some fine work out there but when one plays a track like the Austin C.C. ite hard to warm up to his style. The hole layouts, tee elevations/placements, and green construction are so surreal that I may misnumber some holes due to the mental haze i developed during the round. The initial holes , highlighted by the par three 3rd with the biggest most unnatural waterfall I've seen, stretch onto a featureless wasteland along Lake Austin framed be rotten RR. timber walls and presenting blind, unfindable landing areas. You are then funneled through a par five fairway flanked by roadcut like slopes where he excavated through the side of the 200' high hill to build a dam for a natural lake location on the top of the hill for the adjacent hole. Tees begin to jut up above the natural grade on top of rock piles that resemble blasting waste from a highway project. Greens slope from front to back after carries over the signature timber walled pot bunkers. It just gets worse and the whole thing is truly reminiscent of a S. Dali paintscape. The 17 th par five presents a blind elevated narrow green with water on two sides and deep bunkers on the third with a landing area for your second shot bisected by an oblique 30 degree slope if you don't have the balls to brave whats up on top. In short, this course was made for most of the guys I've seen comments from on this site.  

Brad Klein

  • Total Karma: 0
Most Overrated Architects
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Most overrated?-Rees Jones, who has yet to meet a site he didn't turn into a field of "Rees' Piece" mounds. -Arthur Hills, who always manages to render dull and lifeless any older course he "renovates" and manages to clutter up all his obvious greenside landing ares with a bunker.-Tom Fazio, who is the king of pretty boy puff.-Dick Wilson, who simply relied upon diagonal greens and a hazard on the inside of a dogleg.-Robert Trent Jones Sr., who quickly got bored with designing when he found out how much money he could make stamping out cookies.

Dick Wilson

Most Overrated Architects
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
I may not be one of the greats, but by today's standards, I'm a genius when it comes to strategy. At least I had SOME strategy incorporated into my designs. More than I can say for Rees, Art, Tommy F...all those rich hacks.

Erik the Red

Most Overrated Architects
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Pardon me Sir Brad, but a cursory review of Pine Tree Golf Club and NCR reveals much more variety and strategy than you give him credit for.  Alsothe video of the 1968 Shell's Wonderful World of Golf match between Casper and Brewer shows great imagination in terms of interesting holes and bunker shapes.  True he was not the best ever but, there was more to his work than your quick statement.Erik

Larry B

Most Overrated Architects
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
I am not well traveled enough to have an authoritative answer but a course which left me mumbling "what was the guy thinking???" was Eagle Vail in Colo. "designed" by Bruce Devlin. I only mention this because others whom I respect have suggested his other courses are no better than what I experienced and his name has not appeared in any previous postings. Too bad Mike won't be going on your next trip Ted...

Ben DeLow

Most Overrated Architects
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Larry, It is astonishing how much work some of these chops like Devlin get without leaving a single memorable design behind. Palmer has captured the mediocre market. Of course, Devlin just got the design job in an $80 million development 2 miles from St. Andrews, so someone is buying his crap!Ben

LarryB

Most Overrated Architects
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Ben, I was somewhat hesitant to even mention Devlin because of my limited exposure to his courses, but it's been 6 years and I still remember how BAD some of the holes were on this course. It was a difficult site but that excuse still doesn't cover it. I have heard 1 positive credible comment on some course he did very early on in the Houston area I believe (who was it who said the best work seems to come early in the architect's career?). Everything else has been negative.

JohnV

Most Overrated Architects
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
I would concur with Erik that NCR South is an excellent course.My nomination would be Gary Player except I don't think that many people rate him that high.While I've only seen a couple of Fazio, Hills or Rees Jones courses, I would agree that all have they faults.  They all have their good moments but for the most part, the courses I've seen have been pretty boring or down right awful.I've never seen any of the Devil's work, but they must be pretty bad to top so many people's hit parade.

Ted_Sturges

Most Overrated Architects
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
I also agree with Erik that NCR South is a nice golf course.  It does however happen to be the second best course on it's street.  But, let's get back to hearing about who's overrated.

Gib_Papazian

Most Overrated Architects
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Hard to believe such an erudite group is not marching in lockstep on Jack Nicklaus designs. Having played and rated some 23 of them, it is still a mystery to me how he continues to get high profile projects when so many of his courses are absolutely unplayable. I am sure that Muirfield Village has its fans - though how much is Desmond Muirhead and how much is Jack is still a question - but his work at places like Grand Cypress and the PGA West Resort is absolutely indefensible. Sherwood is probably the most even-handed of the ones I have played a couple of times, but even there he could not restrain himself with his "signature" cliche's. Yeech.  

Joel_Stewart

  • Total Karma: -10
Re:Most Overrated Architects
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2005, 05:13:13 PM »
Most overrated?-Rees Jones, who has yet to meet a site he didn't turn into a field of "Rees' Piece" mounds.

I guess I should bring this thread up as well, and have to agree with Brad.   I just don't see anything of value that Rees brings to a site?

Jonathan Cummings

  • Total Karma: -4
Re:Most Overrated Architects
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2005, 05:46:46 PM »
Gib - I thought like you about Nicklaus for years.  I've played 25 or so JN courses.  But the last 4 upscale jobs he has done I've like quite a bit.  Mayacama, Bear's Club, Outlaw and Pronghorn.

JC

ChipRoyce

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Most Overrated Architects
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2005, 05:50:08 PM »
I'd sat RTJ....

Lots of others who would be runners up, but I believe that RTJ's influence set GCA back for at least 30 years

Ward P:
Tell us what you *REALLY* think about Austin C.C. :)
Are you in the Austin area?

Bill_McBride

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Most Overrated Architects
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2005, 06:05:05 PM »
It's interesting that RTJ was Stanley Thompson's protege.  Has anyone ever said anything bad about a Thompson course?  It's the only one I've played, but I would love to be a member of Capilano!

It still galls me that RTJ couldn't see how much better Spyglass would have been if #1 played backward was #18!  :P

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Most Overrated Architects
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2005, 06:18:44 PM »
It's interesting that RTJ was Stanley Thompson's protege.  

I wonder about this. Weren't they more or less partners who spent most of their time on different jobs in different regions?

Anyone?

ChipRoyce

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Most Overrated Architects
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2005, 06:39:24 PM »
BTW - what's up with all these "Guest" postings?

I thought Ran had made changes a year or so ago where everyone had to be registered to post?

Jonathan Cummings

  • Total Karma: -4
Re:Most Overrated Architects
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2005, 06:40:33 PM »
Bill - I have always said that they can correct most of the ills at Spyglass by moving the clubhouse and starting hole to #7.  In this way you preserved the climatic holes (1-6) for the end.  

Columbia/Edgewater was a thoroughly pleasant tract and club.  Mike Erdmann and I had the place to ourselves.  Hope I can play it one day with you.

JC

wsmorrison

Re:Most Overrated Architects
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2005, 06:41:12 PM »
Given my limited experience to date (19 on site, 9 researched)  it might well be Donald Ross.  I may be wrong because my sampling is rather small so I remain open-minded that I may be in error.  

I still say this knowing how much I admire Charles River, Pinehurst #2 (it took some time), Pine Needles and Southern Pines (which were really nice surprises this year).  I highly regard LuLu and much of Gulph Mills (understanding the Maxwell changes).  I think all the greens at Aronimink are wonderful and I like quite a number of greens at CC York.  

I take it for granted that he has a number of great courses I've never seen including Seminole, Sara Bay, Plainfield and a number of his Massachusetts and New England courses.  I look forward to seeing/playing many such courses in the future.  Ron Forse keeps telling me about a lot of Ross courses that I need to see including Mountain Ridge among many others.

Yet for all of that, aren't there a rather large number of mediocre to below average courses?  Should they be disregarded because he was spreading the game of golf and he was just laying them out en masse?

Three reasons for my selection of Ross as most overrated:

1.  The vast majority of his courses had little staying power.  He didn't seem to foresee the future of golf and account for it.  A number of his courses were remodeled within less than 10 years of their construction; including seven by Flynn (a high percentage of Flynn's redesign work).

2.  His routing style was rather one dimensional.  Tom Paul has noticed his propensity to have high tees, low landing areas and high greens.  I've seen this over and over.  Well, at CC York (Craigh Disher and I were there today to study not play) he did this a lot and  missed out on some really great topographic features and the course, in my mind, did not make the best use of land.

For the Flynn book we're just going to stick to a comparison and contrast of the routings and demonstrate routing tendencies.  But here I will say that Ross did not come up with as interesting a design nor does his stand the test of time as Flynn's would have.  Not only that but Flynn's routing would have taken the golfer to interesting spots with great overlooks or natural settings for walks, tees and green sites in and across ravines that Ross simply avoided because the topography got a bit complicated and the holes were possibly too difficult for a membership that did not want such a test of golf.  Maybe Ross gave them what they wanted, but it was a far cry from what the terrain called for.

The Ross/Flynn analysis will be of great interest, I feel.  Bob Crosby, Scott Nye, Craig Disher, Tom Paul and I are collaborating with some great input from Rons Forse and Prichard (The Philadelphia, DC, Atlanta School of Golf Research) on the chapter and it will be a highlight of the book.

3.  Ross's greatness is established by a relatively small number of courses in his overall portfolio.  Are many of his courses disregarded in favor of his best efforts?  I think so.  Put it this way, do you think his HR to at-bat ratio is poor compared to other architects?   How about his batting average?  Quite a few big game-winning hits, but are they enough to place him at the apex of the pyramid?

« Last Edit: May 31, 2005, 06:48:38 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Joel_Stewart

  • Total Karma: -10
Re:Most Overrated Architects
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2005, 06:58:41 PM »
Wayne:   Wow what a great answer and gutsy as well.  

I'm not sure I agree but living in California I haven't played that many Ross courses.  I have played Mountain Ridge which I really liked and thought Plainfield was superb.  

I will take a closer look next time I play a Ross course based on your analysis.

Chip:  Those answers are from 1999, prior to Rans direction.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2005, 06:59:57 PM by Joel_Stewart »