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George_Bahto

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« on: August 31, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Were you aware that there are 5 holes and one green at Shinnecock Hills which were part of the 1916 Macdonald / Raynor design that Wm Flynn kept when he redesigned the course in the early 30's - this includes the present 9th (up that huge hill) that once  was Raynor's 18th?
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Ted_Sturges

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Yes, George I was aware of that (probably because you told me a couple of years ago).  So glad to see you making a post here.  Please continue to share your vast wisdom on golf course design, especially with regard to Macdonald, Raynor, Banks, Barton and Co.Question to George:Please list your top 2 favorite Raynor/Macdonald one shot holes for each hole. (For example, your 2 favorite Redans, etc.)  Feel free to include more than 2 in each category.  I'd love to see your list, as you've seen them all!
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Ran Morrissett

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
That is fascinating -  I was under the distinct impression that none of his design remained. Also, which five holes are his and to what extent do they exist today? Is the 7th one of them?George, I have about about 6,000 other questions to ask you but I will limit it to that for the time being.
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TEPaul

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
George:         What do you think of Piping Rock's redan (hole #3)?
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John Morrissett

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
George--Thanks.  I seem to recall reading something about that in the previews for the '95 Open.  When you think about it, though, I suppose that should not be a surprise -- after all, who else built Redans?I think Shinnecock's 7th is the most underrated Redan out there.  It receives my vote as the best Redan over non-descipt land (I would favor it over 7 at Chicago Golf Club).  With the possible exception of the 2nd at Somerset Hills (oops! I guess I just answered my question above) Shinnecock's Redan requires the most precise shot of all versions of the hole.  It is an excellent example of not needing a dramatic piece of land to build an arresting hole.
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George_Bahto

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Ran:  The 5 1/2 holes of Raynors are the present holes 1 - 2 -3 (#2 was made into a par-3) - these were Raynor's 1st, 12th and 13th. Continuing, they are the present 7th, 8th and 9th.  They were Seth's 14 Redan), 16th (a Cape hole - sans water)which was called "Home" (typical) and was originally built at 371 yds ..... the present 9th (Raynor's 18th) was really good at that length in those days ... it was designed so the members could watch the end of the incoming matches as they hit to the blind green which at that time had a cross bunker built into the hill.That hole seems stupid now at US Open yardage
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
TEPAUL: the Redan at Piping Rock is one of the best ones they built - what I like about it is the un-pinnable shoulder along much of the the right side of the green  - very severe and makes for really great putting.  The Redan bunker is really deep (easily 15 feet down in some areas) and rivals National 4th for depth Macdonald's Redan at National is in a class by itself for many reasons especially because of the huge knobby approach area that they never duplicated anyplace else.  Downhill chipping or putting from that are which is five feet higher than the beginning of the green is facinating. I spent about two hours there late one evening chipping and puting into various areas of the greenCB was not going to have a better anything built that would outshine a hole at his NationalI can only think of one hole (excluding Lido) where a hole was built that ended up better than its counterpart at NGLA - actually that's a pretty good question, isn't it?  
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
John: Flynn really softened the Raynor Redan quite a bit from what I can tell - (I was there watching when the hole was aced - that was exciting)  I think the bunkers were made shallower and though the green has a very severe falloff to the rear and the pros had a real problem staying on the green, I feel the chip back uphill to the pin is very easy (for them - not us humans) ......  however it is a wonder example of RedanAnd yes the info finally surfaced during the 95 Open - why so long you ask? - well Old Charlie had a falling out with the SH membership (sorry promised not to give out the details) and by left (?) the club. You will find no mention of the course being Macdonald/Raynor (1916-1931)in the SH club histories (2) nor in Charlie's book Scotland's Gilft - Golf.The highway was schuduled to come thru the SH property in 1930 and it knocked out 8 of the Raynor holes - the Biarritz green is still down there in the weeds near the roadI developed a map of the Raynor-Shinnecock course (6100 yds)and will come out along with many others in the book
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Ted_Sturges

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
To George,Is your "better than at The National" mystery hole the 9th at Yale?
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Ted_Sturges

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
George:We'd still like to see your list of favorite Raynor/Macdonald one shot holes.  I asked for your top 2 of each hole, but surely you could list 3 or more for each.  Please share your thoughts!
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George_Bahto

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
OK Sturgess, your putting me the spot here  :-)..... but here goes (I reserve the right to alter this later)The Short: Far and away the National 6th on of the most wild greens to be found - pin placement front right is near impossible. I think 2nd would be the great 10th at Chicago - over water to a green with 2 dished depressions with a ridge between themRedan:  1. National 4th hands down  2. I like Piping Rock's for the reasons I stated elsewhere but there is another great one at CC of Fairfield that has a most interesting area just short of the green.  Both of those have equally cavernous bunkers. Tillie's 2nd at Somerset is a real gem - but we are only talking Macdonald Raynor & Banks nowBiarritz: Yale was the most literal version before it finally came that the 16th at Cypress was a Raynor Biarritz (there I go giving out good info again) - the 8th at Lido was along the beach - was on the beach - was avery good one - it washed away and was rebuilt twice after that.   There are lots of great Biarritz's around but unfortunately many features (mounding, reverse horseshoe rediges and swales) have long since dissappeared.Eden Holes: This is really tough because there are many really great ones around. I think I'll hold off on the Eden and come back with that after I give it some thought
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Ted: Nope not Yale's 9th - there is no Biarritz at National - Charlie felt he never had the proper topography for it so never built it there - (there are only 3 par-3's at National)
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Tom Naccarato

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
George,How much of the Biaritz is left at Yale?Interesting to hear about the one at SH.  Very eerily gone away like Thomas' Ojai Valley Inn 3rd which has become nothing more then a trash dump for old construction materials.  When Ojai happen to obtain a copy of Geoff Shackelford's "The Captain," they saw the hole and how Tom Weiskopf and Jay Moorish never even took the time to research the history of the course and the history of how Thomas used it as an example in "Golf Architecture in America" as well as with Robert Hunter in "The Links."In today's times this of course got them the restoration of the old third and fourth holes which Morrish promptly has given to his son, Carter to "restore." I think he read it as "destroy."All of the bunker and green complexes were visable and to properly restore the hole it would have taken removing a lot of the junk by hand, thus insuring the preservation of what hasn't eroded.When I returned in February, I saw the horror of Carter Moorish's handy work where he simply erased the site with the heaviest of machinery and was going to recreate the hole as he saw it, which by my calculation wasn't even close. Even sadder, they will parade this hole as being restored and it won't be the third hole, but the fourth, and the fourth will now become the fifth.Should be real depressing.
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TEPaul

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Anyone remember the Redan at the Links G.C. in Long Island? I was a kid but it was a hard one-long! Think it was a 4-wood for good players and it was left to right-don't remember which hole it was, all the holes were named.
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DBE

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
SH's seventh is the most difficult redan I've ever set up or played.  There isn't much room to land your tee shot and at US Open green speeds and firmness, not but one or two fair cupable (is that a word?) areas.  All of the other redans I've seen give pleny of room to the right to land a ball and roll towards the green center or left.  The fourth at NGL is the best and Piping's third is second.  Somerset Hills needs to raise the back half of the green.  There is only one back hole placement and that is a small bowl about eight feet in diameter. At the new World Golf Village's Squire and Slammer (I may have those reversed, please forgive me Sam and Gene) Bobby Weed built a front nine redan.  The Senior Tour played their Legends Four Ball there and none of the players knew how to play the hole.  They thought it was stupid.  Why don't architects design more of them, are they afraid the Senior Tour members won't like them?  I think they're more fun to play than just about any short hole.
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George_Bahto

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Tom: Yale's great 9th is intact - a real beauty - I wish all students of architecture could someday get to a chance to play itRemember the time frame: 1924 thru 1926 (and  tons and tons of dynamite later).  The ball could not be carried very far in the air and all but a few players had to roll or bound thru that deep swale, hopefully getting to the back pin placement. Trouble with the Yale swale (that rhymes) is the ball often get airborm rolling thru the  it and hits the far side and never makes the rear section.For those who have never been to Yale the teeing ground is about 50 feet above the water that requires a carry of about 160 yards to the beginning of the "double" green.The original Biarritz in France was played from an 80 foot cliff, over the Bay of Biscay to a 50 foot cliff beyond.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Ted: concerning the "better than at The National" mystery hole (built by Macdonald / Raynor ).....   it is neither on the east coast nor the west (that hint is like a "sucker" pin placement).It is often seen on TV and has had much praise heaped on it over the years.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Ted_Sturges

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
George,That would have to be the famous Cape Hole at the wonderful Mid Ocean Club.
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George_Bahto

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Yep Teddy your correct I wonder if anyone can come up with another on built better than its counterpart at NationalBy the way about the Eden Hole (your previous question about my favorite Raynor Macdonald par-3's: ........ The National's Eden has to be my favorite of this genre - there are so many really great Eden holes on other courses of theirs - Fishers Island is really good but I think you might have to lump about 15 or so that would come in second to National's 13thMy problem with thier Eden holes is that they seemed to be leery of duplicating the severe slope at the rear of the green - you don't have to duplicate the 11th St. Andrews but they never really come close - certainly too difficlult for most clubsa wierd oone - a one of a kind - comes on Westhapton's 3rds - from the tee you can only see the top third of the flag - it is a sunken eden - about 5 feet or more below the level of the fairway
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Ran Morrissett

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
George:I am surprised that you like National's Eden better than Fishers Island's. Fishers is fully exposed to all the elements plus there is nothing that frames the green. In these two key aspects, it is more consistent with the original.
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George_Bahto

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Ran: The National just a some sort of a "vice" with me I guessyes of course F/I is excellent and one of the bestI like the National's bunkering a lot - and those two little mounds at the mouth of the approach are neat - the 2 pot bunkers on the right  - Creek has nice pot bunkers but the green is not as good
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Ran Morrissett

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Given that Flynn incorporated the Redan into his re-design at Shinnecock, he clearly then admired that type one shotter. My question: did Flynn build many Redans? I ask, not having played much of his work. The 4th at The Cascades has some Redan characteristics but that's his only hole that even comes close of which I'm aware.
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Adam_Messix

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
It is my understanding that there was a tee discovered by the new superintendent at Shinnecock on the current 7th.  If it is where I think it is...I think it will be a more difficult hole and it will remove that ugly hedge.I just finished reading Patric Dickinson's book A Round of Courses and he was not too thrilled by the Redan concept.  I found it interesting that even mentioned the Redan at National as well.  Any thoughts.........
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TEPaul

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Ran:I would say that yes, Flynn did do Redan holes but probably his own version. #3 Huntingdon Valley and #7 Philly C.C. very much have redanish characteristics. These two holes are actually very similar to each other in their general set-ups (the putting surfaces are somewhat different).But they are very redanish, I think, in how a golfer thinks about them and goes about playing them. Both of Flynn's have a definite left kick and filter off the front right portion. Neither of Flynn's are set at the angle of the more traditional redan and both of these examples actually have bunkering along the right side that's higher than the green. This just might have to do with the topography where he built them though. Since the angle of the green is much less you can also go right at both these greens,  but the running redan shot is very much an option. The width he provided for the entrance for the redan shot is much narrower but this might be because the option of going right at the green is much more realistic than say NGLA. Just remembered another semi-redanish Flynn hole, although the setup is a little different than the two above. That would be #13 Manufacturers. The angle of the first two I mentioned is a little along the lines of #7 Westhampton, if you've seen that one.All these holes, by the way, are at 200+
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Mike_Cirba

(Seth Raynor's) Redan at Shinnecock
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Lehigh's 13th has some redanish characteristics, particularly with a hole cut in the back left corner location.Somewhat unfortunately, the short right hand bunkering effectively takes away a running approach coming in from that side.However, the angle and tilt of the green are very similar, as is the imminent failure to carry a shot aimed left dealt with rather severely.
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