SFGC - The not so great debate for once and for all

[George Thomas]

This post comes from comments under the post "Predictions on Ted Strurge's trip."The most overrated course presently going is SFGC. The highway ruined the back nine period. The course is very good up until the 13th tee but it is all over, rover after that. Yes, keep it in the top US 100 but in the world top 30?? Give me a large break.It is supposed to be strategic blah blah with great fairway bunkering blah blah.Well, compare it to Riveria where the same is often said:1 Riveria one up2. Riveria one up3. Riveria one up4. Riveria two up5. three up6. four up7. three up8. three up9. four up (and that is SF better nine)10. five up11. five up12. four up13. five up14. five up15. six up16. six up17. five up18. six upNot even remotely close - it simply isn't a world class course. Bottom line: it is a better Club than course.

[Clark]

I agree -- Riviera is miles better.I think SFGC's high ranking is based on the difficulty of playing there -- that once you are one of the rare people who play there, you want to make sure everyone knows that you are "connected" enough to play there. It's simply a form of snobbery.  The front at SFGC is quite good but, as has been noted elsewhere in this DG, the back falls apart.  The only reason why any sane person might occasionaly prefer to play it over Riviera is that Riviera is now sadly just a golf factory and that SFGC allows for a more enjoyable time as your goup might be the only ones on the course!

[Mike Hendren]

Bump:

Riveting discussion from the "glory" days of GCA

I think the subject is a good one, however, as I am hard pressed to analyze SFGC after just one (and probably only) round there.  

Would the recent thread on Pinehurst #2 apply to SFGC as well?

Opinions from the grown-up table?

Mike

[rgkeller]

>>I think SFGC's high ranking is based on the difficulty of playing there -- that once you are one of the rare people who play there, you want to make sure everyone knows that you are "connected" enough to play there. It's simply a form of snobbery.<<

The same thing could be said about many courses ranked in the top 100.

[Mike Hendren]

One thing I like about SFGC is its scale and expansiveness - not unlike the original Augusta National Golf Club.  

The course is bold in a simple way.  

The green surrounds yield plenty of short game options and the greens are oh so subtle.  

The word that best describes the course is "pure" in my sophomoric mind.  

Mike

[les_claytor]

I started to reply, but can't even do it.  Suffice it to say that SFGC is so good it's scary.

All this rating crap is so overblown it's stupid.  Why can't we take a course for face value and enjoy it for what it is?  There are so many layers to courses of this caliber that it should just be good enough to get to scrape away and discover them.

Les

[A_Clay_Man]

One of the things that surprised me at SFGC was how deceptive the yardages were. I don't think I came within 10 yards of a correct number using my nose. What was funny was I kept guessing short, until I had it figured out and then I guessed long. I enjoyed that. I also had an amazing day off the tee, so the yardages and views were from positon AYE.

The wave like bunkers would make alot more sense if views of the ocean were still doable. But the trees that cause the needed housing break, block.

The third hole with the narrow drive zone caused by the hill on the right and then the Tarantula bunker, are just to die for.

Cal Club near by, has always been over-looked and is perhaps the most underated.

[Wayne Freeman]

Having played all the ranked courses in Calif. I'm glad to see this thread, because I've never felt SFCC measures up to all the other biggies.  Yes, it's expansive and has some great holes, ( like the awesome "duel hole"), but to me it can't touch Cypress Point, Pebble, LACC, Olympic, or Riviera.  Of course, I wouldn't turn down another invitation any time!

[Tom_Doak]

Adam:

One of the reasons you had so much trouble judging yardages is because the flatter holes are much hillier than they look.  5 is way uphill, 6 is downhill, 12 and 14 and 17 uphill.  I'm talking 20 and 30 feet of elevation change, and of course, much greater on holes like 2 and 8.

I was back there last week, and I'm very happy they still invite me back.

[Jonathan Cummings]

I'll get blasted for this, but I agree with George.  I am lucky enough to have a best friend who plays at SFGC so I have been there a number of times.  It is as charming a clubhouse as can be.  It is a great walk with your friends and (always great) caddies.  There are some simply wonderful holes at SFG.  BUT, the highway completely destroys the ambiance of this one time quiet parkland setting.   Whatever your personal recipe for golf course greatness is, the part of the pie you reserve for esthetics has to be significantly reduced at SFGC, which is why, in my mind, SFGC can only be so great.

JC  

[A_Clay_Man]

TD- Yes, I had that same problem at Spyglass my first 15 rounds. I remember specifically thinking how relatively flat it all looked, save for #2. I smelled that one.

Jonathan, When you mention aestehtics, do you mean the surrounds? I found that the bunkering scale made me feel like they were big dunes (at least in periphery). Tricking my mind to thinking I was amongst my beloved dunes.


Perhaps it has more to do with the people and experience, rather than what is commonly known as great GCA?

[Jonathan Cummings]

Adam - to me esthetics "is the sum of all my senses".  This includes touch, smell, sound and sight.  The great ones please all my senses.  Anything less is less esthetics.  J

[Lou_Duran]

Just a most wonderful course.  Even with the changes for highway expansion (which apparently was not completed), highly deserving of its reputation.  If this is just a club course at best, I would hate to categorize where most of us play our regular golf.  A cow pasture?  A flood plain?

[THuckaby2]

As long as we're talking esthetics... what really blew me away was how LITTLE one felt the freeway... in sight, sound, smell, whatever...

But I guess that comes down to expectations.  Having spent several years of my life parking every day on a street adjacent to SFGC, then walking to the BART station... then driving home along the very freeways and roads that Jonathan noticed in a negative way... well... when I finally got to play the course, I expected it to be like Griffith Park in Los Angeles - the SoCals know what I mean - that is, constant traffic noise, cars in sight for most of the round, etc.

The reality for me blew me away... it is EXPANSIVE in there, the trees fronting the highway are HUGE, and even on the back nine right up against it, well... I had to strain to TRY to hear the noise.  I just expected it to be awful, and I was floored by how relatively bucolic it is inside those gates.

That being said, the highway does exist, and one does notice it.  So perhaps that is enough of a negative to knock it down a notch among the really great courses, the differences between which are so tiny anyway....

But I'm here to say as an outsider finally seeing it from the inside, it was astounding to me how little one does feel the outside influences.

BTW, I'm sure someone at some point will say esthetics don't matter.  Well, I think they do.  

TH

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I am having trouble with any of this. The holes after 13 are much better now after the recent work on the course. I still do not like the par 3 16th? the rest of the course id top 10 in every way. Mike noted the scale of the course and I agree. But get a grip on the highway, Oakmount has a highway cutting it in half. Pebble has Schwab's house that will never be finished. The country is full of great courses that are adversely impacted by noise. The highway does not ruin this course. It may not be as tranquil as 40 years ago, but it is a beautiful walk in the part. This is especially so for an urban course in a very densly populated city. I will have the good fortune to play Riviera later this month and if it is as good a golf experience and course as SFGC, then I will eat some crow. I will also say the duel hole is not even in my top 5 holes on this course. I have not played the Cal club and 4 or 5 other very notable courses in SF Area. Yet, based on my experiences there, this area is rich in great golf holes and courses at the top. SFGC belongs at the top with Cypress in the 2nd best golf area in the US. And you can play year round here.

[Bob_Huntley]

John Bernhardt,

Go wash out your mouth. SFGC second best after Cypress, you have to be kidding. The analogy re the Freeway and Schwab's house is a non-starter. The highway is ugly, noisy and dangerous... ask the club about local thugs and robberies at gunpoint in the past. The house is large, reasonably well proportioned and looks out over Stillwater Cove and to Point Lobos. A heavenly setting.

Still don't care for PB's 5th hole though.

[Jimmy Cal]

SFGC is a GREAT club, Riviera, Olympic Lake, PBGC, and CGC all better golf courses in my view.  Thats not to say this is not a great track.  Highway is no big deal.

[Tyler Kearns]

Tiger,

    The 16th hole at San Francisco is not a par 3, perhaps you are thinking of No. 15.

Tyler Kearns

[Gerry B]

SFGC is a gem. Difficulty to get on this classic is IMHO a reason for some of the harsh comments. I love Olympic Lakes course and this is just as good in amany ways.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

For my senses, I'll take SFGC anyday. (Jon are you feeling O.K.?)

Yes, some of the holes have evoilved horribly, but enough of this "the freeway ruined everything" If you want to see something the freeway ruined as well as Robert Muir Graves, Rees Jones and several green committees--go to Lake Merced. Thats ruined!

(This does not mean I don't like Lake Merced, I think all of the holes as far away from the clubhouse area are still pretty good, + its a perfect example of what could have been!)

To get back to SFGC, What holes are ruined besides #13 & 14? Even though #15 isn't Tillie, was it all that bad? I hear Tom Doak has made it even better, so there!

Lets face it, this is a love it or hate it type of course, and your best friend can hate it all he wants. That doesn't mean that a freeway has ruined it!

Long Live SFGC!

[johnk]

I think this is one of those cases where it's just hard to forget.  People remember great holes and great shots played for a really long time...  And the memory of those things only improves with age.

I've always been amazed by unanimous dislike that old-schoolers have for changes - even if they occured 30 years ago.  It colors their judgement forever after.  Stanford #4 / #5 is a similar situation.

SFGC is magical, both aesthetically and strategically.   The greens and the bunkering really make it so.  It's also plays incredibly long for it's actual distance - and thanks to Tom Doak for pointing out onr reason I'd never realized.  So without doing a hole-by-hole, I think it stands up against everything else in CA quite well.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Well said John.

The only problems is that the flow of the course is in fact interupted at #13, you lose a great shot par 3 there, and while the stumble is brief, it doesn't take long to get back to the scheme of things. There are lots of great shots out there and some really special putting surfaces that help its cause.

And I say this as I always have--if those holes bother you, then you simply don't belong at SFGC--it won't be your cup of tea, so better to go get it across the street!

Don't get me wrong, I hope Tom Doak can someday rebuild Little Tillie and the others and I think it could strengthen the minds of the doubters if he did.

[A_Clay_Man]

Tommy- While #13 is where the course gets "off track" in a flow sense, it never really recovers until #18. (or was that me , that didnt recover?   )

And even then, the nature or feel of that hole (18), is quite unique to the course. Ob right, sloping fairway, massive fairway bunker, etc. Plus, The green set in that open space, really gives a different feel. (or was #9 similar?)

The whole of SFGC, is certainly greater than that the sum of it's parts = art.

[Mike Hendren]

The whole of SFGC, is certainly greater than that the sum of it's parts = art.

A-Clay,

Thanks for articulating what I could not.  Other than the Duel hole and the Mae West 12th, details of each hole are not vivid in my mind's eye after one round, but the overall course is.   My impression remains that each hole is rock solid, with the only negative memory being the claustrophobic trees on 17.  The highway never entered my mind and I found the old 13th green to work well as a reverse redan for the 14th IF that is in fact the case.  

I absolutely love the open expanse in front of the clubhouse that houses the 9th and 18th greens and the 10th fairway.  

Mike

[A_Clay_Man]

Dr. Bill- I must confess that while my experience was high, it was probably not typical. My one and only was on Caddy Monday. No access to amenities, no access to nuthin but the parking lot and the course. So, my comments were really about the golf. I suppose it's possible that the ambience of the large clubhouse looming over the tenth tee rubbed off onto me, but I prefer to recall the subtle elegance of the grounds. Nothing flashing, just an old school satisfaction that comes from knowing.